Legal Issues

KaVir · 06-02-2007, 09:31 AM

Lasher recently drew my attention to an uncoming game called "", which obviously sounds rather similar to "God Wars". I was a little concerned about God of War and God of War II when they came out, but at least those were console games. Gods War, on the other hand, is graphical mud (MMORPG).

While I don't really mind other games using similar names, my major concern is that they might try to force me to change the name of my game - although I imagine they'd have serious trouble trying to erase the last 12 years of God Wars history, not to mention the fact that there are around a hundred muds based on the GodWars codebase.

I'm sure I'm not the first person to run into this issue, but I don't recall seeing any other muds deal with it (other than a few one-week-wonder muds, or two muds that split from the same game). Anyone have any thoughts on this matter?

Valg · 06-02-2007, 10:01 AM

I think the immediate problem you'd run into is that the name isn't very 'unusual', for lack of a better term. If anyone had a complaint, it would be Sony, as their product is roughly as similar in name, and much more widely known. (They also have additional legal steps in place, such as registered trademarks and such.)

Could you make the case that the MMORPG gameplay is based off of your work? I think with the name alone, you can't do anything about. I don't think changing your name is a good plan, since you'll lose branding, but you might want to adopt a second, more unique word as a subtitle, like: "Godwars, ____". At the very least, so people looking for you can rapidly find you by searching.

the_logos · 06-02-2007, 01:43 PM

My non-lawyerly understanding of the situation in the US, at least, is that if they trademarked God War, they might be able to stop you using God Wars, which would be a fairly clear infringement on their trademark. I don't think you'd be able to file for a trademark because afaik God Wars is non-commercial, and trademarks may only be obtained in relation to commercial activity. I wonder if you could stick a few google ads on your site though and claim that God Wars 2 is a commercial enterprise, then register for a trademark? I have no idea.

A quick US trademark search shows that God of War is a registered trademark (by Sony) but God War and God Wars is not. I bet there's a decent chance that trying to trademark "Gods War" or "God Wars" as a game-related trademark would be rejected, in which case you've got nothing to worry about since if Sony was going to come after you for GodWars I'd imagine they'd have done it by now.

--matt

scandum · 06-03-2007, 03:52 AM

You seem to worry an awful lot kavir.

I don't think any company would bother getting negative publicity by suing some underdog. They'd just spend a fraction of the money a lawsuit would cost to kick your google rating for those keywords below the first five pages, next forget about your existence just like anyone else.

KaVir · 06-03-2007, 07:13 AM

Sadly your opinion has little basis in reality. A number of muds have been threatened with legal action in the past, and "going for the little fish" has become a popular tactic among certain companies, as it gives them an easy way of establishing precedent - and that's just for copyright infringements. Trademarks tend to be far more rigorously defended, as (unlike copyrights) they can actually be lost if not defended.

scandum · 06-03-2007, 10:51 AM

Sadly that goes bothways. I've yet to hear of a mud being legally threatened for a trademark violation.

Given you've been using Godwars for over a decade you kind of refute your own argument here.

the_logos · 06-03-2007, 02:46 PM

I know of three that have been.

--matt

the_logos · 06-03-2007, 02:55 PM

How does the fact that he's been using Godwars for over a decade matter given that the only potential trademark that he MIGHT be infringing on (and that's a pretty big and speculative stretch imho) is from 2004 and that the game he's worried about (Gods War) hasn't registered a trademark yet?

Do you really think the law expects people to look into the future and not use a trademark that someone else might, sometime in the future, decide to use?

--matt

scandum · 06-03-2007, 04:38 PM

I'm curious what the fuss was about in those cases, whether there were copyright violations involved as well, and if the suers got their way.

Regarding Godwars, if anyone makes a trademark claim Kavir can state he's been using Godwars for over a decade without the one claiming to own the trademark complaining.

Ilkidarios · 06-03-2007, 06:31 PM

I'm with Matt and KaVir, I've seen a few MUDs which have been threatened with legal action based on copyright.

Of course, they've been different than this case though. Most of the one's I've heard of were based on a world that was already copyrighted, such as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. It just doesn't happen that often.

the_logos · 06-03-2007, 11:04 PM

Scandum wrote:
There were copyright violations involved in 2 of the three cases and in all three, a lawsuit was never needed as there was no doubt the su-ee wasn't in a position to defend his work. Two of the MUDs were hobbyist and one a struggling commercial MUD.

Well, two things. First, nobody owns a trademark on "Godwars" currently or "Gods War" or "God Wars" currently in the US. There's a trademark for "God of War" by Sony that was registered in 2004. So, nothing before 2004 is really relevant.

Second, as Kavir isn't using "Godwars" in a commercial context, he doesn't have a trademark on "Godwars". If someone were to register "Godwars" (after having used it in a commercial context) tomorrow and the USPTO accepted the registration, and the new trademark owner decided to be an a-hole about things, it seems possible (to this non-lawyer at least) that he could go after Kavir and force him to stop using Godwars.

It just seems unlikely to me, as I bet Sony would object to anyone trying to register "Gods War" in a video game context, and Sony hasn't come after Kavir.

--matt

scandum · 06-04-2007, 10:22 AM

So what are the details of the case where only a trademark violation was the problem?

--Scandum <span style='font-family:1'>™</span>

Angie · 06-04-2007, 10:59 AM

Didn't Fallout MUD have some problems with Interplay after they released Fallout I? I vaguely remember they were able to keep their name due to the fact that they had existed well before the CRPG.

KaVir · 06-04-2007, 11:46 AM

perhaps? After their licence with ICE expired they had to rename a load of things, such as the gameworld ("Kulthea" became "Elanthia"), deities, etc.

scandum · 06-04-2007, 04:38 PM

I looked it up and that was a copyright issue.

KaVir · 06-04-2007, 06:29 PM

Cite, please. .

scandum · 06-05-2007, 04:19 AM

From Wikipedia:

Didn't tolkien have the name 'hobbit' as a trademark of some sort?

Anyway, Angie addressed Fallout MUD which seems to indicate that prior existence might have some legal or social bearing.

KaVir · 06-05-2007, 06:01 AM

The rest of that paragraph reads:

Many of the game changes were simply renaming ICE names, such as changing the world name from Kulthea to Elanthia, and renaming the deities while keeping their previous characteristics.

Renaming would be due to trademark infringement, which is also a type of intellectual property, rights to which can be granted by licence (for example the d20 System licence, which allows you to use various WotC trademarks).

It's a trademark owned by the Tolkien estate, yes, although Tolkien wasn't the first to use the name.

the_logos · 06-05-2007, 12:22 PM

It has social bearing, but afaik, no legal bearing. Trademarks don't exist outside of a commercial context. Hobbyists are not entitled to trademarks because the whole point of trademarks is to protect unique identifiers around a commercial service or product.

Mabus · 06-05-2007, 05:03 PM

Fist off, standard disclaimer. I am not a lawyer. Seek appropriate legal help in your community.

You do not have to be a commercial organization to apply for a trademark. Registering with the IRS as a not-for-profit organization would allow trademarking of the name. Non-profit organizations, which the God Wars community should qualify for (as they are both artisitic and for the public benefit), can apply for and receive trademarks.

As an example of a non-profit winning a trademark case over a for-profit (commercial) enterprise see the WWF.

You can also check your state to see if they allow trade name registration. I know I use a fictitious name for myself with my music, and it is registered in my state (and is listed on all my copyright forms as a pseudonym). Trade name registration would provide legal basis to show that the name is in use, especially if you choose to object to a company's trademark application.

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06-02-2007, 09:31 AM	#1
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Lasher recently drew my attention to an uncoming game called "", which obviously sounds rather similar to "God Wars". I was a little concerned about God of War and God of War II when they came out, but at least those were console games. Gods War, on the other hand, is graphical mud (MMORPG). While I don't really mind other games using similar names, my major concern is that they might try to force me to change the name of my game - although I imagine they'd have serious trouble trying to erase the last 12 years of God Wars history, not to mention the fact that there are around a hundred muds based on the GodWars codebase. I'm sure I'm not the first person to run into this issue, but I don't recall seeing any other muds deal with it (other than a few one-week-wonder muds, or two muds that split from the same game). Anyone have any thoughts on this matter?

06-02-2007, 10:01 AM	#2
Valg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Carrion Fields Posts: 643	I think the immediate problem you'd run into is that the name isn't very 'unusual', for lack of a better term. If anyone had a complaint, it would be Sony, as their product is roughly as similar in name, and much more widely known. (They also have additional legal steps in place, such as registered trademarks and such.) Could you make the case that the MMORPG gameplay is based off of your work? I think with the name alone, you can't do anything about. I don't think changing your name is a good plan, since you'll lose branding, but you might want to adopt a second, more unique word as a subtitle, like: "Godwars, ____". At the very least, so people looking for you can rapidly find you by searching.

06-02-2007, 01:43 PM	#3
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	My non-lawyerly understanding of the situation in the US, at least, is that if they trademarked God War, they might be able to stop you using God Wars, which would be a fairly clear infringement on their trademark. I don't think you'd be able to file for a trademark because afaik God Wars is non-commercial, and trademarks may only be obtained in relation to commercial activity. I wonder if you could stick a few google ads on your site though and claim that God Wars 2 is a commercial enterprise, then register for a trademark? I have no idea. A quick US trademark search shows that God of War is a registered trademark (by Sony) but God War and God Wars is not. I bet there's a decent chance that trying to trademark "Gods War" or "God Wars" as a game-related trademark would be rejected, in which case you've got nothing to worry about since if Sony was going to come after you for GodWars I'd imagine they'd have done it by now. --matt

06-03-2007, 03:52 AM	#4
scandum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 315	You seem to worry an awful lot kavir. I don't think any company would bother getting negative publicity by suing some underdog. They'd just spend a fraction of the money a lawsuit would cost to kick your google rating for those keywords below the first five pages, next forget about your existence just like anyone else.

06-03-2007, 07:13 AM	#5
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Sadly your opinion has little basis in reality. A number of muds have been threatened with legal action in the past, and "going for the little fish" has become a popular tactic among certain companies, as it gives them an easy way of establishing precedent - and that's just for copyright infringements. Trademarks tend to be far more rigorously defended, as (unlike copyrights) they can actually be lost if not defended.

06-03-2007, 10:51 AM	#6
scandum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 315	Sadly that goes bothways. I've yet to hear of a mud being legally threatened for a trademark violation. Given you've been using Godwars for over a decade you kind of refute your own argument here.

06-03-2007, 02:46 PM	#7
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	I know of three that have been. --matt

06-03-2007, 02:55 PM	#8
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	How does the fact that he's been using Godwars for over a decade matter given that the only potential trademark that he MIGHT be infringing on (and that's a pretty big and speculative stretch imho) is from 2004 and that the game he's worried about (Gods War) hasn't registered a trademark yet? Do you really think the law expects people to look into the future and not use a trademark that someone else might, sometime in the future, decide to use? --matt

06-03-2007, 04:38 PM	#9
scandum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 315	I'm curious what the fuss was about in those cases, whether there were copyright violations involved as well, and if the suers got their way. Regarding Godwars, if anyone makes a trademark claim Kavir can state he's been using Godwars for over a decade without the one claiming to own the trademark complaining.

06-03-2007, 06:31 PM	#10
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	I'm with Matt and KaVir, I've seen a few MUDs which have been threatened with legal action based on copyright. Of course, they've been different than this case though. Most of the one's I've heard of were based on a world that was already copyrighted, such as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. It just doesn't happen that often.

06-03-2007, 11:04 PM	#11
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Scandum wrote: There were copyright violations involved in 2 of the three cases and in all three, a lawsuit was never needed as there was no doubt the su-ee wasn't in a position to defend his work. Two of the MUDs were hobbyist and one a struggling commercial MUD. Well, two things. First, nobody owns a trademark on "Godwars" currently or "Gods War" or "God Wars" currently in the US. There's a trademark for "God of War" by Sony that was registered in 2004. So, nothing before 2004 is really relevant. Second, as Kavir isn't using "Godwars" in a commercial context, he doesn't have a trademark on "Godwars". If someone were to register "Godwars" (after having used it in a commercial context) tomorrow and the USPTO accepted the registration, and the new trademark owner decided to be an a-hole about things, it seems possible (to this non-lawyer at least) that he could go after Kavir and force him to stop using Godwars. It just seems unlikely to me, as I bet Sony would object to anyone trying to register "Gods War" in a video game context, and Sony hasn't come after Kavir. --matt

06-04-2007, 10:22 AM	#12
scandum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 315	So what are the details of the case where only a trademark violation was the problem? --Scandum <span style='font-family:1'>™</span>

06-04-2007, 10:59 AM	#13
Angie Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Prague Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 134	Didn't Fallout MUD have some problems with Interplay after they released Fallout I? I vaguely remember they were able to keep their name due to the fact that they had existed well before the CRPG.

06-04-2007, 11:46 AM	#14
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	perhaps? After their licence with ICE expired they had to rename a load of things, such as the gameworld ("Kulthea" became "Elanthia"), deities, etc.

06-04-2007, 04:38 PM	#15
scandum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 315	I looked it up and that was a copyright issue.

06-04-2007, 06:29 PM	#16
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Cite, please. .

06-05-2007, 04:19 AM	#17
scandum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 315	From Wikipedia: Didn't tolkien have the name 'hobbit' as a trademark of some sort? Anyway, Angie addressed Fallout MUD which seems to indicate that prior existence might have some legal or social bearing.

06-05-2007, 06:01 AM	#18
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	The rest of that paragraph reads: Many of the game changes were simply renaming ICE names, such as changing the world name from Kulthea to Elanthia, and renaming the deities while keeping their previous characteristics. Renaming would be due to trademark infringement, which is also a type of intellectual property, rights to which can be granted by licence (for example the d20 System licence, which allows you to use various WotC trademarks). It's a trademark owned by the Tolkien estate, yes, although Tolkien wasn't the first to use the name.

06-05-2007, 12:22 PM	#19
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	It has social bearing, but afaik, no legal bearing. Trademarks don't exist outside of a commercial context. Hobbyists are not entitled to trademarks because the whole point of trademarks is to protect unique identifiers around a commercial service or product.

06-05-2007, 05:03 PM	#20
Mabus Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 213	Fist off, standard disclaimer. I am not a lawyer. Seek appropriate legal help in your community. You do not have to be a commercial organization to apply for a trademark. Registering with the IRS as a not-for-profit organization would allow trademarking of the name. Non-profit organizations, which the God Wars community should qualify for (as they are both artisitic and for the public benefit), can apply for and receive trademarks. As an example of a non-profit winning a trademark case over a for-profit (commercial) enterprise see the WWF. You can also check your state to see if they allow trade name registration. I know I use a fictitious name for myself with my music, and it is registered in my state (and is listed on all my copyright forms as a pseudonym). Trade name registration would provide legal basis to show that the name is in use, especially if you choose to object to a company's trademark application.

Legal Issues

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