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KaVir · 06-05-2003, 07:53 AM

My original intent wasn't to suggest that Traithe had an implied license, but rather to dispute your claim that it is illegal to use copyrighted work without express permission.

Having said that, however, I could see Traithe putting forward a reasonable argument based upon the last sentence of the first paragraph, which states "Generally, the custom and practice of the community are used to determine the scope of the implied license", and then making reference to the following three points:

1) There are dozens of Tolkien muds, some of which are over a decade old (not to mention other Tolkien-based computer games - such as Mines of Moria, which actually predates the first MUD. In fact, it predates me...)

2) The Tolkien copyright holders have never taken any legal action against any muds based upon their work, nor even complained about them.

3) The copyright holders HAVE taken legal action against many other people who have infringed on their rights.

You are using an "implied license" to read the TMS forums (as your browser needs to download the posts). This is considered acceptable, as you are following the custom and practice of the community in doing so. In my opinion, Traithe has sufficient precedent to put forward an argument based on that same assumption, at least until such point as the copyright holders clarify their position.

It's also worth noting that:

1) The Tolkien copyright holders request that permission be asked before using their work, and:

2) Traithe has contacted the copyright holders, ergo:

3) The copyright holders are aware that Traithe is using their work.

Now were they to contact Traithe and tell him to shut his mud down, that would be a different matter. Were there any precedent for them shutting down other muds, that would be a different matter. Were the copyright holders were to say they didn't people running muds based on their work, I could see your point. But they haven't done any of that.

Whenever I see people suggesting turning their Diku-derived muds into "custom" muds, I inform them of the situation - that they will always be a Diku derivative unless they start over from scratch. Whenever I see people suggesting basing their work on Feist (or any other author who has made it clear they don't want people using their work), I inform them of the situation - that the authors will shut them down.

But I do not make assumptions. If I see someone using a snippet or codebase that I am not familiar with, I do not simply call them a "thief" - I try find out the wishes of the copyright holder, and then act accordingly, and if I can't find the copyright holder or any statements by them, I do not say anything.

Equally, if I see someone basing their mud on an existing set of novels, I would respond in the same way (although in that case I would contact the authors privately rather than post on mud forums, because as I've said before, it is not a mud issue).

I would suggest you do the same. Your original post on TMC attacked WoT muds, until it was pointed out to you that they had an express license from Robert Jordan. You've now moved on to Tolkien muds, but once again you do not know the wishes of the copyright holder - you are making assumptions based on pure speculation, and damaging the reputation of a number of muds in the process. As this is the legal forum, I think I should also point out that such statements, when untrue, are referred to as "libel", and could open you up to legal action yourself.

And in reference to the Medievia section on my website, that was put together purely because by 2000 I was sick and tired of having to repeat the same massive flamewar every six months, and so I collected together all the evidence I could find and stuck it onto my site. It worked - there have been no real flamewars since, just the occasional spark, since the only real excuse the pro-Medievia people are able to use any more is "who cares?".

Tolkien drew inspiration from various sources, including the work of Lord Dunsany, who's best-known novel was "The King of Elfland's Daughter" (first published 1924).

06-05-2003, 07:53 AM	#112
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	My original intent wasn't to suggest that Traithe had an implied license, but rather to dispute your claim that it is illegal to use copyrighted work without express permission. Having said that, however, I could see Traithe putting forward a reasonable argument based upon the last sentence of the first paragraph, which states "Generally, the custom and practice of the community are used to determine the scope of the implied license", and then making reference to the following three points: 1) There are dozens of Tolkien muds, some of which are over a decade old (not to mention other Tolkien-based computer games - such as Mines of Moria, which actually predates the first MUD. In fact, it predates me...) 2) The Tolkien copyright holders have never taken any legal action against any muds based upon their work, nor even complained about them. 3) The copyright holders HAVE taken legal action against many other people who have infringed on their rights. You are using an "implied license" to read the TMS forums (as your browser needs to download the posts). This is considered acceptable, as you are following the custom and practice of the community in doing so. In my opinion, Traithe has sufficient precedent to put forward an argument based on that same assumption, at least until such point as the copyright holders clarify their position. It's also worth noting that: 1) The Tolkien copyright holders request that permission be asked before using their work, and: 2) Traithe has contacted the copyright holders, ergo: 3) The copyright holders are aware that Traithe is using their work. Now were they to contact Traithe and tell him to shut his mud down, that would be a different matter. Were there any precedent for them shutting down other muds, that would be a different matter. Were the copyright holders were to say they didn't people running muds based on their work, I could see your point. But they haven't done any of that. Whenever I see people suggesting turning their Diku-derived muds into "custom" muds, I inform them of the situation - that they will always be a Diku derivative unless they start over from scratch. Whenever I see people suggesting basing their work on Feist (or any other author who has made it clear they don't want people using their work), I inform them of the situation - that the authors will shut them down. But I do not make assumptions. If I see someone using a snippet or codebase that I am not familiar with, I do not simply call them a "thief" - I try find out the wishes of the copyright holder, and then act accordingly, and if I can't find the copyright holder or any statements by them, I do not say anything. Equally, if I see someone basing their mud on an existing set of novels, I would respond in the same way (although in that case I would contact the authors privately rather than post on mud forums, because as I've said before, it is not a mud issue). I would suggest you do the same. Your original post on TMC attacked WoT muds, until it was pointed out to you that they had an express license from Robert Jordan. You've now moved on to Tolkien muds, but once again you do not know the wishes of the copyright holder - you are making assumptions based on pure speculation, and damaging the reputation of a number of muds in the process. As this is the legal forum, I think I should also point out that such statements, when untrue, are referred to as "libel", and could open you up to legal action yourself. And in reference to the Medievia section on my website, that was put together purely because by 2000 I was sick and tired of having to repeat the same massive flamewar every six months, and so I collected together all the evidence I could find and stuck it onto my site. It worked - there have been no real flamewars since, just the occasional spark, since the only real excuse the pro-Medievia people are able to use any more is "who cares?". Tolkien drew inspiration from various sources, including the work of Lord Dunsany, who's best-known novel was "The King of Elfland's Daughter" (first published 1924).