What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

What is a necromancer?

I'm sure most minds go immediately to reanimated corpses. Crude, re-awakened corpse aggregates, chopped up bodies, and dark rituals.

But - outside of his or her reanimated creations - what IS a necromancer?

This is a question I am facing while rebuilding a new Necromancer class for my mud. I've seen the "animate skeleton" and "drain life" type of spells, but most of the time this is nothing unique. So I want to ask those of you out there with the capacity to think about such things to discuss it here. (For the sake of argument, let's assume they have the ability to create, animate, and control at least 1 undead "pet")

What does a necromancer do when he/she is not animating the undead? What is their secondary ability/spell?

Specifically for party-based play, what would their role(s) be?

You may describe/support your ideas with what you have seen elsewhere (mud, console, pen&paper, etc) but do not limit it to that only.

What would you _most like_ to see, or expect to see as a Necromancer player?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Depending on the game system, Necromancer, as the "anti-healer" category, could be anything from an inflicter of blight and disease, crippling and either slowly killing or just weakening an opponent, or even taking the "anti-heal" concept more literally, and performing some effects that prevent healing entirely in the target.

Now, interesting variants on necromancers I've seen in the past often include the negative energy aspect, which can be great or utterly silly, depending on how it's employed, and of course, there are tons which just rely on the classic "I have a huge hoard of undead" motif, so those aren't to be ruled out, but I find myself favoring the "master of disease/decay" approach whenever I've been involved in game design, with an occasional "death energy" mix-in, if you can make it creepy enough.

The only other idea that comes to mind is that necromancy originally stems from a practice of calling forth the spirits of the dead for purposes of communication, rather than as revenant-style entities to be used in combat. Perhaps some flavor could be drawn from that direction?

Just brain storming here, as the flavor itself is probably secondary to the way it's employed.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

The original meaning? Someone who summoned the spirits of the dead in order to ask them questions. Thus the word "necromancy", which derives from the Greek νεκρός (nekrós), "dead", and μαντεία (manteía), "divination" (see Wikipedia for more information).

Today you'd probably call such a person a "medium" or "spiritualist".

That's more of a modern definition, but I think the original spiritual aspect is something which has a lot of untapped potential within muds - and a lot of sources of inspiration. TV series such as "Medium", "Ghost Whisperer" and "Afterlife" might be a little cheesy, but they have some interesting ideas.

A couple of books worth checking out are "Necroscope" by Brian Lumley and "The Summoner" by Gail Z. Martin, both of which have a main character who can talk to the dead.

You could also check out "Guilty Pleasures" by Laurell K. Hamilton, where the main character is a necromancer who works for Animators Inc; she literally raises the dead for a living, usually for legal purposes (resolving contested wills, questioning murder victims, etc).

Necromancers don't have to be evil!

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

What makes a necromancer? Well, you wanted thoughts:

First, I agree that necromancer is in and of itself not evil.

Second, I agree that undead pets should be part of it and if possible, useable for groups.

All that said, I'm actually inclined to agree with Kereth that, for grouping, "death" damage as well as unique debuffs. There's also the possibility of unusual buffs: in the context of the mud you are working on, it could offer no unconciousness or a greater leeway of negative hit points.

Perhaps a blend of undead and blight/disease would be worthwhile?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

While I agree with KaVir that the implications of the original "necromancer" concept are fascinating, I would point out that origins of any term or concept are not necessarily a canon that needs be subscribed to. Very few fantasy concepts have survived into modern use with more than very slight resemblance to their original forms. Now, that said, I also think modern trends are similarly free to deviate from, although if you go so far from either that you end up with a clan of magical warriors wielding supernatural holy daisies, you might want to stretch into another term entirely.

Now, you've already said that undead will be involved, so let's take up this "not evil" concept in that context. You're playing with the bodies of dead people. This means at some point you've killed someone. Depending on whether or not you live in a world where random executions of large masses of evil beings are readily available, this may make it very difficult for your necromancer to practice their craft while still being a "good guy." I suppose there's taking death row inmates and turning them into zombies, but the fellow who slaughters everyone in the day care center is going to have a much easier time gathering pieces for his creation(s). Now, depending on theme, you may also want unspeakable rites or some other inherently dark magics be required for the animation. If the latter is the case, then yes, necromancers would necessarily be evil. Even without that, though, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that, for whatever reason, evil necromancers would be the standard, if not the rule.

You're welcome to disagree, of course, and context and precise details of theme can change a lot.
-Kereth Midknight

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Oh I agree, and I hope you didn't think that that's what I was suggesting. I just think that the original meaning of "necromancer" is something which is often overlooked, but that it could provide an interesting avenue to explore - even if only as one aspect of the necromancer's powers.

Some of my colleagues "play" with dead bodies as well, but to the best of my knowledge they've certainly not killed anyone! Even the archtypical fantasy necromancer tends to be more of a graverobber than a mass-murderer - rather like many surgeons and anatomists in medieval and renaissance Europe (although they rarely stole the bodies themselves, they still paid other people to do so).

Animated skeletons and zombies are typically mindless and lack a soul - creating them might be irreverant and unhygienic, but IMO it's no more "evil" than building a robot.

Of course then there are the ethereal undead - ghosts, wraiths, spectres, etc. They lack physical bodies, which removes the whole "playing with corpses" thing from the equation.

In some settings the necromancer forces the still-aware souls of the dead to serve him, making him a sort of supernatural slaver. This would almost certainly be considered "evil" by todays standards, although the same attitute doesn't seem to extend to other sentient beings (eg it's usually considered perfectly fine to bind an elemental into eternal servitude).

Yet in other settings, the undead willingly serve the necromancer. For example in the Necroscope books I mentioned in my previous post, the dead willingly choose to reanimate their corpses in order to aid and protect the title character.

In one of the Anita Blake novels, a man had shot himself, and as a result his insurance company refused to pay anything to his widow - because they claimed it was a suicide. Serving in a legal capacity (with lawyers present), Anita temporarily animated the man, and he was able to confirm that it was a careless accident and not a suicide (in these books, the dead can't lie). The man said his goodbyes to his widow and children, and was then put back to rest. Was this evil? I would say no.

The Eberron campaign setting for D&D is set shortly after a great war. During the war, the nation of Karrnath was so short on soldiers that they started animating the corpses of those fallen in battle in order to defend their borders. Was this evil? Possibly, but it saved tens of thousands of lives, as fewer civilians needed to be drafted.

The necromancer is typically portrayed in fantasy literal as "evil", but personally I find such an overgeneralisation somewhat limiting. Like anyone else, a necromancer's abilities can be used for good or evil, and I think it makes them more interesting if you allow them to be judged as individuals, based on how they use those abilities.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Thanks for the intersting and constructive replies so far. It's insightful to hear what thoughts are conjured up by the name necromancer in relation to a playable class.

I understood what KaVir had in mind here. It's exactly what I am looking for, also. A necromancer class will need to have a few of the modern stereotypes so that it gives us what we'd expect to see. But too often it's left at that and the Necromancer class ends up far from well-rounded.

I also agree that they don't need to be evil. I'd consider the act of re-animating something that shifts toward evil as it is morally objectionable in most circles. But I'd like to see other options available to the necromancer, perhaps even go as far as being able to be a productive necromancer who doesn't do animation at all. But that means they must have some other pursuits and I think we've started down the road of defining those.

So they have an interest in the spirits of those already dead. What about their knowledge of the body and its functions? Would you put them on par with a healer, perhaps a healer that made it half way through school and dropped out to start messing with stuff? Or do you consider the two schools (healing and necromancy) too unrelated to have intersected at all?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

To me, necromancers are masters of mortality: that means death AND life. As such, they possess the capacity to destroy souls as well as resurrect the dead. Their magic makes them very useful in parties not only because of the latter, but also because of their ability to turn/dispatch or otherwise control the undead. There is definitely room for "evil," though it's not innate. Necromancers can choose the dark side of their craft.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Practice.

:-D

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

ruckus> What is a necromancer?
KaVir> The original meaning? Someone who summoned the spirits of the dead in order to ask them questions. Today you'd probably call such a person a "medium" or "spiritualist".

ruckus> What does a necromancer do when he/she is not animating the undead? What is their secondary ability/spell?

IMHO, KaVir's definition is your best starting point.

Why would someone someone summon the dead and ask them questions, instead of asking the people (or Gods) around? Because the Ancients are better informed than the living (including the Gods), they are also smarter and more willing to answer. Or at least the necromancer must think so.

In other words, a necromancer is fascinated by the Dead - by their civilization, their moral and culture, their knowledge. A necromancer is willing to learn their way of living, to explore their world, even to live there - if it were at all possible. Not a surprise, the necromancer calls for his (or her) beloved Dead when in need of help of advice.

Thus, here is a brief list of typical necromancer activities:
- any Ancient studies (ancient languages, history, mythology, archeology, petrifactology)
- religion. death and afterlife. undeath. probably no resurrection (unless that's the word the necromancer uses for animation). any other interactions with the Gods who supervise the contacts between the living and the Dead.
- spiritualism. any types of direct contact with the Dead for information exchange.
- medicine. mummy studies. animating corpses and summoning spirits. plane travels. any types of physical contacts with the Dead.
- medicine. vivisection. eugenics. attempts to "improve" the living (i.e. to make them more like the Dead)
- any practical activities in their everyday life (like any other human, a necromancer needs money. or at least, food, closing, housing and materials for their research and experiments). mercenary or advisor services. in any case, the necromancer is likely to rely on using their knowledge and any available powers of the Dead.

HTH,
Nasredin

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

/pre-submit edit: holy sh...oelaces, I've written another novel. Short summary for the tl/dr crowd and those with little time:

"EVERY game has necromancers who can animate the dead but don't have to (if they have necros at all). A necromancer who needs his undead for almost everything would be new and interesting, and not yet_another_diablo2_necro."

----------------------begin novel-size rant/brainstorm/hopefully source of inspiration------------



Well, while I don't have a lot to add anymore about the historical background, I'd like to add my 2 cent about a necromancer's secondary abilities...

I'm a bit bored by them, actually.

I start a game as necromancer, and find that animating corpses is a "can", not a "must". This bothers me a bit since imho animating corpses is the defining characteristic of a necromancer, but as long as I can still choose to play a pet-focused necromancer I won't complain.

But then there's the next stage of this... necromancer classes/guilds in some games can animate undead servants to help them... but are better off NOT doing this because their "secondary" abilities are actually stronger. Necromancers who don't bring their pets to parties because they aren't worth the loss of experience for the group or because they'd just fall over and die on the first mob big enough to warrant bringing a party. Necromancers who don't put skill points (or training, or whatever) into their pets because blood magic, curses, spirit chants or whatever the game in question has benefits the party more and thus is a more efficient use of mana/spell points/whatnot. Basically they take the weaker half of the spells a mage and abjurer would get, rename them to have a loose connection to necromancy, and give that class a pet with a "you can use it for soloing and RP but don't bother bringing it if you team up with other people" power level. That's just wrong.


Now I don't want to come across as all negative, so here's what _I_ would love to see:

A necromancer class/guild that actually focuses on the animated undead. Maybe uses ONLY them.

Can this work? Maybe it requires some tweaks, depending on what game you want to implement it in.

The starting levels are the first hurdle. "but a new player at level 1 won't have any animated undead, what is HE supposed to do then?" - Take this dagger/staff/scythe (depending on what feeling you want to give your necromancer), kill that goblin over there ->, animate it. go from there. You'll soon notice that it's better to let others do the dirty work.
Balancing... a VERY hard task with any class, even more so for necromancers. You don't want the pets to be useless, but because the player doesn't put himself into as much risk sending the undead into the fray as he would if he'd fight himself, the pet can't be as powerful as a fighter. I'm not sure if this CAN be done without either side complaining at all. You can give the pet *almost* as much power as a fighter if you implement harsh penalties for dying pets, but you don't want the necromancer to become unplayable when his pet dies, either.

And last (for now) but not least, would a necromancer even be useful in a party? Maybe your game prevents too many people from joining into melee, or maybe small rooms in your game do this. Maybe melee damage isn't enough to be worth a slot in a party unless it comes with a meat-shield attached. Maybe a caster-type NEEDS some utility (paralyze, status effects, direct damage to ANY target rather than only those in melee range...) to be useful for a party... That's where a "real" pets-only necromancer class becomes a nice dream only, never to be implemented in that game. However, you can get pretty close if you tie all that utility to abilities of the pets - possibly abilities that require the necromancer to persuade the undead to perform them. Think of this as spells or skills with the pet as material component.

You want your necromancer to be able to paralyze an opponent? "cast undead tackle at <petname> target <monster>" (or some variation of that), the pet will try to hold said monster. This kind of trick could be VERY interesting if your necromancer class allows for pets with widely varying attributes, since you'd want to have a big, strong undead for stuff like this tackle but would rather go with a faster skeleton-type undead for better attack rating and damage if you wanted more damage. Or you could put your effort into creating a more mystical undead (ghost? grim reaper?) who wouldn't do much damage in melee but would give the most damage output when using "soul strike" or something like that (causing the undead to use its connection to <negative plane of your choice, or whatever your game uses to explain undead> to <drain away the life force of the living opponent, absorb the negative energy of the undead opponent, or taint the magical energy animating the construct opponent - these could actually be three different spells/abilities>.
This would again be a necromancer who uses damage blasts, (de)buffs and/or status effects, but the necromancer would have to actually behave like a necromancer and animate the dead. And for RP/flavor/immersion it's just SO much nicer to have the frankenstein's monster grab and squeeze the bad guy than create some nondescript magical tentacle or soulcage or whatever, or to have the festering giant zombie stand between the squishy members of your party and the enemies' archers than to create <yet another glowing shield-like effect thingie>.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Just to clear two things up that I think didn't get across very well in my post...

a) my comment about the newbie levels: What I wanted to say is, let the necromancer start dealing with animated undead at low levels. Too many games let newbie necromancers run around beating and/or blasting stuff because they won't get any efficient undead until level <way too high, at least several days of playing before you reach this>.

b) Ruckus said: "But I'd like to see other options available to the necromancer, perhaps even go as far as being able to be a productive necromancer who doesn't do animation at all."

- "go as far as..."? Have a look at... oh, which games to choose. I'll limit myself to two, to avoid another novel. So, Take diablo 2. Old game, but a classic - the necromancer there had a fairly powerful number of undead pets (at least after patch 1.10), but could easily play without them using the bones and poison skills he got, augmented by his curses. And for a newer example, take guild wars. The necromancer there CAN summon undead (though it's the sucky kind that decay over time, even if they're just standing around). But they also get lots of direct damage (both single-target and multi-target), life-draining abilities, curses (debuffs), blood-well style thingies (buffs for allies in a radius around a corpse used for this ability), and and and... there's dozends of playable necro builds with no summoning involved at all, and maybe one or two builds that use summons... but aren't useable in all areas, since the necromancer there has to constantly refresh his supply of pets.

I can't even think of a game where the necromancer CAN'T live without his undead pets right now - I'm sure there are a few, but the games where necromancers are "mage plus pet" by far outnumber the ones where necromancers truly rely on their pets, I think. "Mage plus pet" isn't new. Not at all.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

I actually like Syndic's idea about miscellaneous abilities that work through the pet, rather than work instead of it. Certain key advantages could be given to a necromancer by virtue of a pet that other casters might not enjoy. I'll hit a few brainstormed options right here, then I might come back with more later.

To start with, let's break the box. Standard concept of a necro pet is a melee fighter. What about a pet that is a mage itself? Maybe you can't have the extra creature in melee range in your game, but you can easily keep it safe while it hangs behind the fighters and fires ranged weapons or spells.

Let's take that a step farther. What if your undead pet acts more as a channel than an actual companion? Traditional ideas about the use of familiars in roleplaying environments could be applied to a necromancer's undead. Spells could be developed that could give an affect to the area surrounding an undead that could be toggled and adjusted tactically, such as an icy aura that makes the ground just a tad slick at all times (increased chance whenever someone tries to knock someone else down?) some sort of necromantic taint to the environs (increased damage for all parties from certain evil damage types?) some sort of anti-healing or anti-death field (decreased or increased potency to all healing spells in the area?) or just intense heat/cold/whatever (steady damage to all present, friend and foe, as with others). These abilities would allow the necromancer to focus on casting spells of their own, perhaps with the undead doing basic melee, ranged, or other combat at the time, while perhaps slowly draining the necromancer's magic energy to fuel the effect. Similarly, the necromancer's pet could be used as a channel for actual spellcasting by the necromancer, as it proceeds to cast either spells the necromancer knows or to "hold" spells that they have cast, prolonging their effects.

Anyway, at the fear of leaving a novel for you all, I'll stop at that for now. More brainstorms to come later.
-Kereth Midknight

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

I like the idea of active minion giving a boon/bane to the necromancer in certain ways. It would definitely introduce some extra strategy on top of what the minion can do alone. As a scientific type of theme it would make sense that the abilities of the guild were varied and complex.

So it sounds like ties to healers aren't that deep since no one has really mentioned that at all. I've heard disease and curse come up in talking, is that something desirable or just expected at this time? I've never been too interested, personally, in a class that is focused on status effects. Not sure what I think about DoT though. Does anyone find a DoT/status focus for necromancer desirable at all?

And two themes seem to be at odds here also. Are necromancers shunned and secretive, or have they become accepted and powerful in certain circles?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Well, speaking strictly in terms of theme, the use of undead or related necromantic abilities probably bears a close tie to healing, in terms of knowledge of the anatomy and general use of dead bodies, etc, but I'd personally join those who seem to be saying that necromancy itself probably isn't going to involve a great deal of actual healing, no.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

The most interesting "play with corpses"-style necromancers aren't shunted into a necromancy class; they are doctors/healers who go too far and funerary officials who don't go far enough.

Necromancers become stale when society expects them to do necromancy.

Regarding the broader spectrum of necromancers, anything that requires human sacrifice is made more interesting. Human sacrifice to contact the already dead, human sacrifice to make unkillable soldiers, human sacrifice to satisfy a hunger, etc., etc., etc.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Just some rather random thoughts:

(It occurs to me that I might be stating the obvious here, especially the balance/pathing stuff. Also, I'm a sucker for converging theme. For that reason, I might be sticking to Retro a little too closely. Oh well.)

In the Retroverse, necromancy was invented by the Darklord in his quest to take over Welstar. It seems to be a mixture of his own biomantic experiments in creating chimeric monsters and Hekau, while using the Nameless One's power to do the "heavy lifting" of the animation of new, undead monsters. In my mind, this amply explains its similarities to biomancy while not actually involving any healing (other than maybe undead healing), as well as why it is generally considered evil (Nameless One's taint). Necromancers who animate undead would have to be secretive in societies hostile to the Nameless One (especially Welstar), while on Crypt (where undead labor is an important part of the economy) they could work and collaborate openly.

As far as necromancer's being valuable in parties, all that's really needed is a couple of the "right" spells. Prots like paralyze resist are prime candidates for party-focused (maybe thematically secondary) spells. These could be presented as a necromancer's ability to grant the qualities of the undead to the target (maybe through Hekau-style magic), while pets are used to do more active role in combat, through either melee or magic (A few other ideas for prots that come to mind are disease immunity, a reverse-iceblood (i.e. fire vuln, cold resist) prot, and those that Starstorm suggested, like temporary no uncon).

I'm in full agreement with the undead pet being an enhancement/focus of the necro powers idea... for necropets to be a viable path, they're going to have to be significantly different than the current in-game pets, and ideally necros that chose to make pets their focus would become rather dependant on them, while pets would offer abilities other potential necropaths wouldn't.

Status effects are, in my opinion, probably overdone in necro implementations. They also tend to be underpowered in retro, probably because it is hard to draw the line at which point they are overpowered. A few might be useful and appropriate, but I personally don't think they should be a focus of the guild.

There is definitely a balance that needs to be made between necro primary and it's secondaries and tert paths, as well as between necro and other guilds. I think one of the major hard-to-address problems in a number of retro's guilds is the lack of balance between the abilities granted in the primary and the actual enhancement of those abilities through pathing. If done right, you could build the foundation for some sort of blasting (maybe harm (attacking the life-force, i.e. Ka)?), prots, and pets in the primary, then pathing could allow an individual to specialize in one of those fields, or maybe a two of three approach, allowing individuals to go blast+prots or prots+undead or blast+undead paths. This would would hopefully allow necros to be well-rounded without being too unbalanced, especially if pathing requires some trade off. Also, those who want to play "good" necro to be a protter/blaster sorta in the strain of bard but without the tankish stuff.

In retrospect, taking the pets out of necro seems like it would make it just an improved Hekau. Maybe this is desirable. It would still be death/unlife related.

~ Madrados, Keeper of the Lore, Student of the Hermetic Arts, etc, etc.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

After reading All the posts i felt i should add a few things..

In the Retroverse there is Paths for all classes, based off their secondary guild.. For necromancer that has Always been Deathmaster (who deals with Neg Energies and Undead pets) and Hekau (who deals with the Ancient Arts of Magic lost to the mages)

So basicly the primary Guild of necromancer is or Should basic.. So they Are allowed to take a Path the Player wishes...

Having a few Spells that Lower ac's and Resistances would be nice.. but unless it lowered it by several % (25% or more) it would be basicly worthless vs monsters and Retro isn't a Pk mud...

Having them make an Undead minion that Does wierd things like Lowering resistances, Causing DoT damage or paralizing foes... Dependant on what necromancer programs it to do.. depending on the Brain put into the Minion...

But Madrados is correct.. for a Necro to be useful in a party.. it needs only needs a couple of Spells.. Mass Antidrain Shield, Vampiric Mass Shield (a spell that takes some of the incoming damage and converts it to healing for the party), Knock down and interrupt spells..

Just my 2.5 cents

Rauul the Former Necromancer leader/Champ/mentor of retro

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

While pathing in RetroMud does help add flavor to the concept of and choices available to Necromancer, I'd like to focus on the core of Necromancer itself. I've been getting some very good replies here and I'm actually quite surprised at the wide variety of concepts in peoples' minds. It's clear to me that Necromancer needs to have a variety of flavors, while maintaining the ability to have powerful and useful undead creations.

To recap, here's what I've understood so far:

1. Necromancers are not necessarily evil but are fascinated, sometimes obsessed, with the dead. Be that the spiritual plane of being dead, understanding the conciousness of those who are dead (like in Fringe, for instance), or by trying to understand the inner-workings of every part of the body (like a computer hacker).

2. Necromancers aren't healers, even though they may have subscribed to that thinking at some time. They are much more interested in making the body work for them, or do things it may not currently do, more than they are interested in keeping it maintained and in its original condition.

3. Necromancers aren't mages, though they may have some damage-dealing ability opened to them by their knowledge of how things work (or their connection to some of the darker arts). Their undead creations should augment their damage-dealing, not be replaced by it.

4. Necromancer creations aren't viewed as hideous monsters (ig: frankenstein monster) by all communities. Some communities may rely heavily on them for labor or commerce (like mercenary work, not merchant work).

5. Necromancer does soom moonlighting in ancient magic and dark arts, and should have the option to pursue these activities later - in lieu of concentrating on their creations.

Did I get that right?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

You forgot:

1. Necromancers may communicate with the spirits of the dead, whether in a benign sense, as a socially accepted phenomena, or in a malicious sense, whether involving human sacrifice, intervention of evil Gods, or simply inherently forbidden on account of how it distrurbs those who have come to their proper rest.

2. Necromancy may entail several party central abilities or specialized prots (listed in previous posts that I won't bother summarizing here), which may add to the partying ability of the class.

3. I like shinies.

4. People who operate on cadavers are inherently bad and should shunned by society, except where most of society worships some evil divinity.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

You mean like forensic pathologists, coroners, anatomists, medical researchers, morticians, taxidermists, etc?

By the way, the term "cadaver" usually refers to a dead body used in medical training or research. I've had the opportunity to operate on cavaders through my work, although I've avoided it so far - not because I think it would make me a bad person, or encourage me to worship evil deities, but because I feel a little queasy about the idea of working on dead bodies.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Evil.. no.. Misunderstood by society at a whole.. yes Since Society is what decides what is evil and what is good i would say they would be considered evil
Correct.. even tho they would be as knowledgeable of anatomy as a Surgeon And not just the Human Body.. they would know All body structures from Insect to Fish to Humanoid.. they study all aspects of Life and death
Correct. But their Damage dealing ability ability is do to their knowledge of the working of the body as a whole.. it's strengths and weaknesses
Well on planets like Perdow and crypt it would be normal.. Welstar would have a law against it
Pretty much :)

But remember they need a Skill/spell that makes them useful in a party.. they can't heal near as well as a bio/cultist/templar.. they can't protect as good as a Abj/merchant and they can't blast as good as a Mage.. they need their own Nitch..

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Good, I'm glad I've understood most of it so far. I think there's been a lot of interesting discussion so far and helpful things that can go into my rewrite of the guild.

Here's a different question then: How would YOU roleplay your necromancer character?

My necromancer would be somewhat "fallen from grace" perhaps a brilliant scientist at one point, or a promising prodigy at least, who became obsessed with the technical inner-workings of the body. He now uses all of his intelligence and knowledge to work at understanding every last detail of that which makes life - and how to control it. He is not evil, though his reputation has been tainted by the immoral view of failed human experimentation. His successes, too, are often maligned by the masses as monsters and abominations. A select group, however - who have themselves blurred the lines of acceptability - see the value in his work. He works closely with them and reciprocates their backing with support from his creations. He is also still active in the global scientific community, though his opinions are weighed much less important than they once were.

What about you? Apart from specific abilities, what would be (or has been) the story of your necromancer?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

My necromancer would be a sullen and determined elitist who got into necromancy for necromancy's sake, rather than being led to it from other fields, and throws his undead around like pokemon, just trying to make a name for himself among the more prodigious and well educated, if somewhat underground, necromantic community.

"Draugr, I choose you!"

On a side note, I've actually worked with cadavers myself, through my grandfather, who was an anatomy professor at a medical school. Please don't take my wisecracks too seriously. Anything that comes after "I like shinies" in my posts should not be usually worth making a fuss over ^^

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

It took long enough for my account to get accepted... Well, here's what I wrote when this first went up:

What is a necromancer? Someone who studies the kind of things that nobody else studies. They ought to have unique abilities. To me, that says "utility class".

My first thought, when I hear 'necromancer', is 'anti-druid'. I think of them as a support role. While druids have utility spells that help their party, blasts based on life, vigor and energy, and eventually skills that make their own party more effective in unusual ways, it seems that necromancers should have utility spells, blasts based on death, negativity and cold, and eventually skills that make their enemies less effective in unusual ways.

Though I could go either way on their ultimate support-type stuffs. I could see necromancers hindering an enemy's healing and thus hastening their demise and I could see necromancers reducing the enemy's damage output, but I guess I could also see necromancers reducing their own party's damage intake or increasing their own party's damage output.

Unfortunately I don't know many utility-type powers that I'd want to give to necromancers offhand. When you use druid as an example you get flight, water breathing, minor crafting... When you look at necromancer, you get...darkvision I guess? Disguises? It might be kind of cool if necromancer got a spell that, I don't know, let everyone in the party see perfectly in any light condition (but thematically only in black-and-white). You know, a low powered out-of-combat utility type thing that newbies will think is awesome. I could see some kind of poison-resistant ability... I could see a way to scare living monsters out of aggroing for the first few rounds, letting the party get the first attack or run back out the first time they go somewhere bad. An expensive tert spell way off in the distance that gave 25-50% chance of escape death while active... That's the kind of thing I want from necromancer utility spells.

I do like the old idea of building up undead out of bones and parts, similar to how some few other guilds build up a signature weapon. It might be neat if that could be revived in a more balanced way, like if the undead was midrow and ranged or something.

I think it's important that necromancers can get into some heavy blasting, within the alignments they find appropriate... stone, disintegration, poison, cold, etc. I think that's going to be one of the main interesting necromancer paths: Your choice of damage type, built on a solid foundation of weird utility spells.

Honestly, while it would be cool to have necromancers debuff enemies, that seems REALLY hard to balance, and very hard for the players to see the effects of that balancing act in some cases. (Like, okay, you cast this spell every run, and the boss with ten million hit points won't heal while you're regenning. Who can tell if it's working?) It might be kind of neat if necromancers could reduce the enemy damage output by 5-10%, but that starts to overlap into other classes' territory. Still...if it stacks, and it's not too huge, then taking necromancer starts to be a great CHOICE. You can reduce damage a fair amount with two PCs, but do you really want to take up those spots in your party if those characters can't do anything else? Maybe it would be better to take a second healer? That's a choice that sounds fun to make. (Possible problem here, if people dprime necromancer and abjurer, but that sounds like a great 'restricted from joining'. Druids shouldn't be allowed into abjurer or druid IMO.) Of course, reducing enemy damage output should only happen a little unless you specialize in that.

There could be other options for a necromancer who wants to stand in the front row of the party, dishing out and taking in damage. I don't know, maybe some of their spells are touch-range? Maybe that idea is a flop but it could be entertaining to call "Prot up the necro so he can touch the scary thing".

Other things. Umm... Monks are traditionally better against humanoids. Necros should be better at fighting the living. If they reduce enemy damage, well, I could see that only working on living foes, and maybe not even on cthulhoid monsters from another dimension. It would be neat if a tert down the road could overcome that. It would be neat if necros DID have access to a path that lets them blow up undead though, because hey, some necros study it because they love undead and would never hurt them, some necros are different.

On that note I don't think necromancers should be restricted to evil. Maybe that's just me. Maybe I've just been reading too much of the webcomic Dominic Deegan for the last month or so, which has a remarkably well-adjusted necromancer... In any case, some necromancer paths would totally be hardcore evil, as would some of their base spells, but certainly not ALL of them!

Now, full disclosure. A lot of this I'm writing because MY character on Retro has just started thematically sliding towards necromancy, I just realised yesterday. So it's kind of "this is what would make me so happy for my character" and "this is what would fit my personal theme". I think that some necromancers are more like mages who happen to study this kind of art, and some necromancers are total deathhounds who revel in negative energy. I think the first is more interesting, while still giving credit to the second. I also think it is TOTALLY important that plain old mages should be able to take some necro stuff!


Getting to the end here, I'm finding that I don't even need the necromancer to raise very many undead. That's, like, the LEAST important part of the theme for me! Wow. I mean, sure, necromancers raise undead. But fighters also train armies and priests also have congregations. And players don't do THAT, so why worry about raising undead?

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

I guess I'm not directly answering the question, but I've often thought that something I read in a Neil Gaiman "Sandman" graphic novel was a concept really worthy of exploration, related to this topic.

In it, the main city was "Necropolis", and the highest calling was to the extremely elaborate mortuary sciences. The characters were not precisely necromancers, but they were far more than shrouded undertakers. Their knowledge of post-mortem burial customs for any and all cultures of their world was encyclopedic, and with only a tiny creative nudge, some of their philosophies, if applied to retro-mortality, would make for interesting necromancers.

Perhaps the most appealing aspect of these characters was that whatever culture's funerary customs they were performing, they were also susceptible to, or the beneficiaries thereof.
Example:
One form of burial for a certain culture was "Air Burial", in which the cadaver was dissected on a high cliff, and fed to the carrion birds. Custom held that the mortician's hands were not to be washed afterward, as it would be a dishonor to the dead, and in order to demonstrate the honor to the dead, the mortician was to prepare his next meal on the cliff with selfsame unwashed hands, which was then rumored to enhance the flavor of the meal. And for the morticians of that world, it was so. Death became not a revulsion, but ... well...a culinary element.

I recommend looking it over for ideas, although the title escapes me at the moment.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Well my necromancer has always been the Lone Socialpath, who was a prodigy in the Biomancer guild, tossed from the guild for illegal Experimentation on LIVING patients... Studying Life and Death and how easy someone can go from one to the other..

As a Necromancer he always built 1 of each of the Undead.. and Studied how to use them best to bring about the quickest death to his enemies

IS it RP.. i don't know.. as other people Shun him.. (he is alot like Dexter on Showtime)

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Necromancers, to be perfectly simple, should mance necro. They should have a kind of fixation with death- probably based on a fascination with the difference between things that are alive and things that are not. What -exactly- it is that leaves the body, etc. As such, when they're not raising spirits or animating corpses, they are probably best at using negative energy.

I think necromancy has picked up the connotations of inherent evil because it deals with death, which, as the purest manifestation of the unknown, would probably attract fear and stigma. If the particular setting in question leans towards a negative energy-wielding necromancer, that would lend even more weight towards the "evil" side of the scale.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Well, I'm several months late to this party, but if ever there were a thread suitable for "thread necromancy", surely it must be this one! :)

The first thing to say is that I think people underestimate the possibilities inherent in animating the dead. Think about the variety of creatures that could be turned into zombies, and think about all the different abilities they might have once under the necromancer's control. What capabilities would a zombie giant possess? Or a zombie pigeon? A zombie flea might make a superb spy. Or what about a zombie dragon? If a corpse of any sort can be zombified, that opens up all sorts of possibilities.

Second thing is that I imagine an advanced necromancer would practise his art on his own body. The ultimate goal of some branches of necromancy would probably be to achieve immortality - to put it in D&D terms, to become a lich. As a necromancer becomes more powerul one can imagine him acquiring a host of different abilities as he gradually becomes closer to being an undead creature himself. At lower levels he might be immune to poison or cold or paralysis. At higher levels he would become less of a living being, more a disesmbodied spirit in control of its own zombie; so the spirit could roam free as a wraith or spectre, with energy draining abilities, able to walk through walls, immune to non-magical weapons, etc. while the body remains safely hidden.

I would expect that a necromancer would be able to confer temporary undead-like abilities on his allies, too (e.g. even at low level he might be able to slow the progression of disease or poison).

He would certainly have the ability to turn (or even control) undead enemies.

Finally there might be some abilities connected to decay and entropy; a necromancer might(for example) be able to destroy a wooden door by accelerating its decomposition to the point where it crumbles away in seconds.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

I'd say there has to be a good system of raising dead monsters to be your undead minions. I can never get enough of that kind of stuff in RPGs. =D

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Our MUD's Necromancer class has no direct-damage spells.

The skills they do have deal not only with turning dead monsters into mindless minions, but also with RE-KILL ING those minions for an extra affect (such as area-damage or healing the whole group)

Since they can have up to four minions at once, Necromancers are obligated to carry around giant stacks of dead bodies as cannon fodder.

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

There is a class in NWA that does this, but you will have to join the game to find out. :D

Re: What makes the perfect _Necromancer_?
 

Thanks to those of you who have contributed to this thread. I have been working on a rewrite of the Necromancer guild for RetroMUD and have tried to incorporate many of the ideas here in hopes of creating the most diverse and appealing necromancer guild to date! Hopefully I've hit that mark ;)

RetroMUD recently announced the return of the Necromancer guild and I'd like to invite any players subscribed to this thread to come check it out. The guild abilties are available on the but that's just the surface of things. More indepth help files are available in game, some of which are also on the website in the help section.

To highlight some of the main features:

- Build your own pets! You are in complete control over the animation process. By amputating parts from corpses of the slain, assembling them to your liking, and using your magic to animate them - you can command healer, blaster, ranged, and melee creations. By utilizing your collection of Negative Energy you can advance them through 4 tiers of power, each unlocking new skills that can be trained to increase their power. Simple skeletons are a thing of the past as you can combine animal, aquatic, dragon, humanoid, nonhuman, and avian parts to create unique minions!

- Master control over the lifeforces of others. While minions are a great tool to the necromancer, they could not be a complete guild without powers of their own. By collecting the departing lifeforce of victims as they are damaged, and distributing this energy to yourself or your allies, a necromancer is a versatile member of any party. With proper training, the necromancer can augment many areas vital to party-based combat. Feed the healer sps, add hps to a meleer, or help an underpowered mage keep up in the battle. If that doesn't suit your style then simply add all of the lifeforce to your own sps so that you are an unstoppable force!

- More! Shadowgates, phantom shards, phylacteries, brain extraction, minor animation of organs and body parts, harmful magic attacks, deathmasters, puppet masters and more are open to you as a Necromancer at RetroMUD.org!!

Please, come check out our new Necromancer - or some of our hundreds of other guilds - and let us know what you think! Also, continue this thread with concepts that appeal to you or maybe things that are still missing from your ideas of the ultimate necromancer.