Synozeer, isn’t it time to explain the reasoning behind your decision to let Medievia back into the list? Several of us would like to know what lies behind it. Did you believe that people would forgive and forget over time? Is it really worth alienating the main part of your members and disrupting the discussion boards by letting these code violators in? What will come next? Will the critical voices be silenced or banned, if they don’t leave voluntarily?

I think most of us noted the renewed presence of Medievia with a raised eyebrow, but decided not to comment on it, because we knew well enough what would be the result of that comment. Perhaps some of us would even have been prepared to grudgingly accept their presence, if they at least had had the sense to keep a low profile. But that of course was not enough for the_logos. With his usual timing and tact, he decided to heartily welcome them to the list, and even if he pretends as usual that his main intention wasn’t to start a flame war, nobody with any brains believe that, given his past history. And the smug admittance of the theft from Soleil really didn’t make things any better. It reminded me of the old days, when her husband Vryce used to crow on TMC over all the new players that came to his mud after each flame war.

I doubt that nobody will ever forgive Vryce and Soleil for the original theft, especially with the attitude they have chosen to take. But here is a constructive suggestion, that could at least remedy some small part of it, and make them, if not liked and respected, at least tolerated members of the community.

I believe that there now is a commercial version of Diku, called Valhalla. If Medievia were to purchase this and put the credits on their log-in screen, and the public got some proof of the transaction, then at least a small part of the intellectual property and money they once stole would go back to the original creators.

So, how about it? It’s not like you couldn’t afford to pay for the licence, with all the money you made on the illegal use of it over the years.

I allowed Medievia back on the list because they asked to be back on - that's it. I made my stand years ago, and none of the other big mud sites (ie. MudConnector), followed suite. I decided that while there would be many unhappy people, the additional traffic Medievia would send would help all muds participating on the list. The money this site makes is inconsequential to me, so greed is not a motivation. I haven't raised advertising prices on this site in several years. If I was out for the money, you'd be seeing constant increases.

I don't want to be judge and jury. If I were, then I might have to decide on removing muds that are violating intellectual property laws too. In the past, I've had this come up, but ignored them. But I wonder, where do I draw the line? Should I begin doing that too? I don't want to be a hypocrite, and I don't want to be put into that situation.

As far as the state of the forums, yes, I have certainly been lacking in my duties, and for that I apologize. I've always liked to play a passive moderation roles and step in only when things really get out of hand. BTW, I've done more than just those 2 "big" moderation acts - most are behind the scenes where I handle it discreetly.

Unfortunately, I'm also pretty busy. I run 10+ websites (including another forum), work a full time job and just had a baby, so it's been rough. I do have moderators assigned to the forums, but many of them don't frequent here often enough.

How's this - I'm willing to take on active moderators again for the various forums of which the moderators are not active and seen. If you're interested in moderating, you can email me via the forum your qualifications, what forums you'd want to moderate (more is better so I can choose incase someone else picked one you wanted). I'm looking for people who will not let emotion or grudges decide how they moderate, will take an active role in keeping discussion going in their particular forum, and of course, keeping people in line. This won't be a thankless job - I'll come up with some sort of perks for those who do this. How's that sound?

Adam

When we opened the Lusternia forums, I had no idea we'd average 5000+ posts per week (yes, week) and, having never moderated forums before in my life, quickly learned the demands placed upon forum managers. Thus, I can certainly sympathize with you! Anyway, best of luck in finding moderators and congratulations on the baby!

Thanks for the reply, Adam, and congratulations on the baby. :)

I know moderating a board is hard work. I'd be willing to help, but I feel I no longer have any idea what's acceptable behaviour on this forum... Is bumping promotion threads with nonsensical replies acceptable? Spamming discussions off the front page with silly cutesy chatter? Flaunting unethical behaviour or dropping flame baits?

All in all, I don't think I'd make a very good TMS moderator. But I wish you good luck.

I am immensely glad to see that you're willing to provide a consistent environment rather than singling out a particular mud. Thank you. It benefits us all.

--matt

Absolutely rubbish - there's nothing even remotely similar between a fan fiction mud which is tolerated by the copyright holders and a mud like Medievia which rips off the hard work of people who have contributed to the mud community (and then boasts about it).

What next? Allow muds that encourage pedophilia, perhaps?

KaVir, yet again you're being rather extreme. Why are you comparing something like pedophilia to a MUD? For goodness sake, it's just a game! Going over the top like that only reinforces the idea being presented that you're blowing a situation way out of proportion. I'm not saying that you are, nor am I saying that you aren't, I'm simply saying that that is the image you're portraying to the people who are continuously arguing with you.

Yes yes, you've inflicted your point of view as if it's gospel on everybody for long enough. We all know how you feel and what your opinion on the issue is.

As I said, I'm glad Synozeer sees things sensibly. If you don't like it, I'm sure there's no reason for you to stay on these forums that support this mud that is, apparently, the devil to you.

--matt

Why is the_logos comparing tolerated fan fiction with blatent IP theft?

This coming from the person who outstayed his welcome years ago - do you honestly think you'd be tolerated here if it wasn't for the advertising money?

Actually, it's Synozeer who is. I'm just backing him up. Funny how you don't attack him when he's the one that made the decision, but choose to attack me instead. Makes one wonder how much you actually care about the principle and how much is just a reason for you to attack people you don't like.

--matt

No, you're the one who's argued the 'fan fiction is worse than ripping the credits out of a Dikumud and claiming it as your own work' idiocy - you've done it repeatedly. Do you really want me to dig up the links?

I disagree with Synozeer's decision, but I respect his right to take a neutral stance. You, on the other hand, have taken every opportunity to sing Medievia's praise and actively defend their IP theft.

KaVir, I personally have become sick of you blasting your hot air on every single board I've read... if it comes to lashing out at someone who provides just as much opinion as you, if not less, and is just as credible as you are, if not more, doesn't that make you a bit of a hypocrite? And tell me, do you disagree with everything Matt says, or is that just with everyone?

As for this: Do -you- honestly think you'd be tolerated here if the admins weren't more sensible than you? Go find a cause that wants you, because everything you stand up for seems to lose credibility after you've stated your opinion.

But you're just a sock-puppet account created to back up your favourite mud - I wouldn't expect anything different. Would it make you feel better if I invited some of my players to say the same thing about the_logo's rantings? Do you think that would be constructive?

*roll* sock-puppet account? No, it was created because I wanted to join in on the forum discussions. And asking your players to come and join in would be about as constructive as your bickering is right now. I just wanted in on a little of the action, you amuse me.

Do you really think that's worthwhile, considering you apparently don't have any opinions of your own? I mean, couldn't just you chalk yourself up as yet another anonymous lacky and save the rest of us from having to read your drivel?

The fact that you feel you need to defend yourself proves to me that you don't think that all of my posts are complete drivel. I do have opinions of my own, actually, and one of them is that you are a pompous, concieted jerk wasting away in front of your computer and verbally attacking anyone who happens to disagree with you for lack of an actual life. I haven't yet been proven wrong, and have gotten several PMs confirming this. At any rate, again you're allowing me to create digression. Shame.

What was that? I ...anyone else hear that?

Kopribear, I'm not sure what you expected, a warm and fuzzy hug??? You have the "Achaea" snot rag hagging on your board signature...

Before you scold all of us "flamers" for not holding what the_logos says as sacred, try doing a little research...be informed...go to Google enter "Medievil code theft", read what you find...maybe you'll understand why respected mud owners like Molly O'Hara are so disgusted! I realize this probably happened while you were in diapers. So do some research!

Why doesn't everyone just give up, Synozeer has made his decision. You're not going to convince him to make Medievia go away. Just learn to accept its being here and you'll be better off.

I'll pretend to be offended. No I didn't expect a warm fuzzy hug, goodness gracious if I cared what anyone thought I wouldn't be posting on these forums. Nor do I think Matt is capable of always being right, etc, I just think he's funny. I also find humorus the way everyone takes themselves so seriously... and the way that, no matter how many times it's stated that what they're complaining about isn't going to change by them complaining, they continue the complaints!
As for the 'Achaea snotrag' comment... to each his own, I suppose. I like Achaea. Apparently you don't. Omigosh, a difference of opinion... and I'm NOT starting a flamewar about it! *feels revolutionary*
Anyway... I'm learning as I read. I'm sorry that my comments were actually consequential... because if they weren't, they obviously wouldn't be replied to. Everyone else gets to state their opinion, I just wanted to join in on the action. Having fun meeting you all.

By the way, KaVir, the fanboy cartoon could easily apply to you.... perhaps even moreso because I'm not a boy. ^_^

xoxoxo
Kopri

Whoa, dude, I just spent about a half an hour looking through that list after you posted the link. That site is awesome!

*gigglefall* at least I'm not a member of a cult of cyber sisters...

Hey look, it's a site about .
(no I'm not serious...)

OOOOHHHH!!

Very scary, the_logos= Derek Smart v.2

Or you could just google "Medievia", the third and fourth links should provide a good amount of information. Medievia has become so linked with code theft that saying "Medievia code theft" is quite redundant.

Anybody who actually supports Medievia in this argument is either morally impaired or ignorant of the truth. And this does not include Synozeer as he himself has stated that he doesn't like Medievia's code thievery but thought "the additional traffic Medievia would send would help all muds participating on the list".

Well, at least some good came from this. Molly left! No more conspiracy theories!

-H

Don't forget contributes the most traffic of anyone to the site! =)

--matt

But here's the thing, and I mean this with all due respect: Those making the outcry ARE the few. Look at the amount of traffic the site gets, and look at how many people have bothered posting their outrage. 10 or 15 people maybe, some of whom are the same ones who have been on this crusade fora decade? Achaea alone sends a couple hundred TMS users here every day, as does Aardwolf.

--matt

Bah, so what logos, and the scottish lost to the english why?

Conversely, the people expressing support for Medievia are fewer, and all affiliated with IRE or Medievia itself. Hardestadt and others have never expressed a significant dissenting opinion to yours, Matt- I suspect they'd hear about it internally if they did. Team IRE is essentially one poster, plus a Kopribear.

The fact that a larger number of independent opinions are to the contrary suggests that there is significant disapproval of Synozeer's decision. And a number of them are longtime contributors to the site who provide the kind of content that helps draw regular readers such as myself. The future absence of Molly and others gives me less reason to stop, read, and discuss here.

I believe that the term "sock puppet" is politically incorrect. We wouldn't want to offend Mr. Mihaly. The proper term is "free-will challenged" or "post monkey". Also "zombie" would work too, had it not been changed to "living-challenged flesh being".

I had declined to comment thus far assuming that this, as always, would just end in a mindless bash. It obviously has, but I still couldn't stop myself from "beating a dead horse", it just needed to be said.

Let us get some facts straight before we start:

1] Unless Medievia have changed their code, I am NOT a supporter. I'm unsure where my opinion would lie if they have decided to replace their code as AFAIK the case law is nil on the subject. Even the link from Kavir about IP states that.

2] I am not a player of any games of the_logos, nor do I know Mr. Mihaly in any way other than his posts in this and other various forums.

3] I have been around the mudding community for quite a while, and this community in particular for longer than is apparent.

4] I agree with Kavir on quite a few things he says, though I disagree with his actions of late, on these forums. This is actually though symptomatic of a bigger problem in the mud community. This appears to happen over time to anybody who deals with the mud community for a long time.

"Those expressing [opinion] are [more/less]..."
-------------
This argument has been used on both sides of the table, using an appeal to popularity to gain respect for your cause proves nothing, and contributes nothing to the discussion.

"The fact that a larger number of independent opinions are to the contrary suggests that there is significant disapproval of Synozeer's decision."

Also due to the amount of emotion fired into attacking anyone with a viewpoint that differs from the political norm of these boards, many people (myself included) decide not to post in order to avoid a barrage of attacks, so I would have to say in this argument the sample of people is unrepresentative of the whole.

"[the_logos/kavir] is...."
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For people whom i've seen, many times, call "LOGICAL FALLACY!" on each other I am amazed at the amount of personal attacks that go into each response, or the amount of logical fallacies that get thrown around. Yes, in debates where you are not searching for truth or proving a truth the art of sneaking in a fallacy works. With topics like this, it should not.

There is a reason that people don't "stop, read, contribute" here anymore. In my opinion, I would hasten to believe that it was because of the hostile atmosphere, and lack of signal.

"All the arguments are caused by the_logos!? Burn him!"
--------------
This is obviously not true, as evinced from this thread itself. [code] 1.Matt said he was immensely glad that synozeer wasn't singling out a mud
2.Kavir replied about blatant IP theft with his slippery pedophilia comment.
3.Kopri stated that it would appear to others that Kavir was blowing things out of proportion.
4.Matt replied, stating everyone knows his opinion, then saying that if he didn't like Synozeer's ruling he didn't have to stay. *
5.Kavir attacked Matt saying he was unwelcome and only was allowed around due to paying Synozeer.[/quote]
--------------
Anyone that attempts to argue a side that contrasts Kavir, and continues to do so is personally attacked, then everyone who feels froggy leaps into mindless "Me too." attacks. If the people here don't see this as detrimental then there is a large problem, though it seems from other posts that people realize it IS a detriment but can't force themselves not to attack "The next victim".

I saw really good arguments over the past couple of months ruined by attacking the person. Changing the subject and calling people mindless isn't an effective argument tool, but it has become one in these forums.

How has it become one?

People are unwilling to waste there time posting if their point is ignored in lieu of a "considering you apparently don't have any opinions of your own?"! This is an amazing hypocrisy, considering the majority of people on the anti-Med side of the argument have posted little to nothing of substance, which isn't saying opposite sides have posted substance. [NOTE: This is still in regards to THESE FORUMS, I am quite aware of everything Anti-Med]

Also the people on this board attempt to take a "For us - Or against us" stance. Anyone who disagrees with a statement is "Anti"-their issue, or "Pro"-their antagonist. This is obviously not logical and just another symptom of the society that has formed on these forums. Which is one thing I do agree with Matt on: his post about how dissenting opinions are treated in these forums.

In fact, alot of what I have seen has been attacks on the_logos, "You are mindless", attacks on people as parents, and comments about harming families. Even comparing Matt to Derek Smart, which shows a lack of knowledge. (all of these can be found in the last months threads)

I'm not asking you to attempt to coerce me with posts that "Prove Matt is the devil!#!!", i've seen him in action sometimes. Though other times it appears paranoia sets in and other people imagine things. Discounting someone because their opinion differs from yours on a regular basis is foolishness.

[In my own personal opinion, and with no relevance on this letter, I believe the FanBoy/Jerk apply just as much to Kavir and most others on -these forums-.]

"IRE is immoral"/"Code theft"
-------------
I don't know where this argument came in. I believe this was mainly due to people jumping in a conversation to "Me too" it, without double-checking their facts. IRE is well respected and as far as I know has done nothing immoral or illegal, regardless of an individuals personal opinion.

(Note: Subjectively this could be argued, some people tend to equate taking money for a service that they think should be free as immoral.)

Yui Unifex
-------------
I have seen some of the best retorts/arguments/statements/assertions come from this persons mouth, although instead of building fortresses of these stones that are put forth by Yui, they are only smashed down by "Shut up, dummy" statements. This is not saying that Yui supports me or my opinions, I just respect Yui.

Anyways, I had more to post but i've decided to take my kids to the beach instead.

Kaylus

My estimated time to someone calling kaylus a sockpuppet or a lapdog or a dummy account, despite all the contrary evidence: 8 posts.

I'm glad to see someone independant say what I've been saying for a while: That no matter what Matt does, the same people will choose to condemn him for it. Some people that have been on the bandwagon in the past, and now have dared actually support him in something.. get called lapdogs.

Some of the things I've seen posted have been utterly deranged, such as people flaming Matt when he announced that a portion of the proceeds from IRE would be going to charity. To me, the people complaining that Matt is killing these boards are the ones who are ultimately doing all the harm - as it is they who derail 90% of the threads after there is some sort of IRE involvement.

Can't we all just get along, and focus on actual development topics instead of this sordid soap opera?

-H

Not if you keep dropping flame-bait into the thread, no.

All you anti-flamers that heep b*tchin', are keeping these flames alive!  This was a dead thread until Kaylus decided to add his two cents. QUIT EFFIN' POSTING & the threads you hate will die!

I have to disagree with that.  I signed up to become a member and was accepted.  I perused the site and read the threads.  Then, I found and read a multi-paged thread on god management heirachies, and I gave my input as a knowledgable upper-level admin on a pretty large game.  I thought my post was well-written and explained very well how Medievia's management-scheme is run and managed.  I assume the reference to flame-bait was my post.  However, It was not my intention in the least to become flame-bait.  I was merely contributing.

Within a day I was banned from the forum.  Not from just posting, but from reading it also.  I understand that there were a few posts following mine that were removed, but I never got to see them, so I cannot speak to the content.

I absolutely understand everyone's stance about Medievia.  However, we are a successful game with lots of years and experience under our belts.  We may know what we're talking about when it comes to some things.  

I do not understand how they can advertise that they are allowing anyone to sign up and participate when that is just not true.

Unifex and I did not want to ban you (and we thought your post was perfectly ontopic and just fine). Unfortunately, asking people who feel that you are actively harming them, right now, to tolerate your presence kindly, especially when you're the reason they left the last forum, just wasn't going to work out. Sorry. Given the choice between being somewhat unfair or having yet another Medievia flamewar, well...

Of course we could have just told everyone else to shut up. Would be a pretty lonely forum then...

I do have to disagree with Sinuhe though. The fact that you don't like someone does not make it okay to go around starting **** constantly. KaVir & co. are not blameless.

Good thing you still have this forum to share your wisdom with us then. I'm holding my breath. So far I haven't seen much else than promotion from you. Even the mudlab post, while I agree it was on topic, wasn't exactly informative. You told us your god system "is very well tuned and works very well" and pasted a list of your immortal levels with two links to Medievia's webpage... not a great contribution to a discussion about the advantages and flaws of different administration arrangements.

From reading these posts there seems to some holes in understanding.

I do admire them for their financial success and large playerbases, but the_logos (Matt) and the people from medevia appear to not understand that code theft is bad. I have seen attempts to educate them fail. I have seen very reasonable and forgiving suggestions that medevia just purchase a license for valhalla, keeping in totality their current codebase.

I don't have the time to do this myself, but I suggest that someone educates them. First I would suggest asking them for their code to set up your own system without having to pay them any royalties, for if taking another's code is not bad, they should gladly offer up their own. If they do offer up their code, then hey, they're ok with me. They aren't doing anything to anyone else that they wouldn't be willing to have happen to themselves. If this fails, however, join one of their muds as a developer, gain priviledges, then steal their code and set up a new system and make cash off of it, making the minimum amount of modifications needed, while giving them no credit. If this happens, and they have any complaints, there should be someone that overtly supports the theft and champions it. I think that this should cover any holes in understanding.

I suspect they just don't have any reality on what it would be like for this kind of thing to happen to them is all, and not that they are bad people. I have been in a situation where the code to a mud I owned was stolen, and it wasn't pleasant.

As for Kavir, you appear to have a fine sense of ethics and the fortitude to stand up for what you think is right despite significant opposition. But this is occasionally ruined by your inability to refrain from making pointless personal attacks on someone's character. Here is a web site with the majority of the logical fallacies:
I would hope that you could see that "Attacking the Person" actually makes you look bad, and look wrong, no matter how right you may be.

Anyhow, I hope this helps all involved. Unless you guys are really enjoying the fighting, in which case, fight on!

Xotl

What's your policy on copyright infringement?

For example - what if one of your developers, say, absconded with your codebase, set it up on a server, stripped out the credits, claimed it as her own and then began using it to make profit?

Well, to be perfectly honest and to no surprise by anyone reading this, I have no policy.  That's Vryce's department, and his alone.  As stated in my earlier posts, I'm willing and able to discuss Medievia's promotions and it's godstaff management.  Copyright infringement was never on the slate for discussion by me.  If you want to hear Vryce's side of it, feel free to email him.

Oh, come now - let's not be coy!

I'm sure you have SOME idea how you'd react in such a case.

Why not share and enlighten us? From the sounds of it, code theft and copyright infringement are pretty big issues in the MU* community these days. Coming from such a large, well-established MUD, you've no doubt encountered these sordid sorts of things in the past, no?

I know I for one would certainly welcome a few sage words of advice here from someone so obviously experienced in these matters.