Hadoryu:
1. Sigh. Here we go again.
If it isn't the_logos targetting Carrion Fields to dilute the thread, it's some other IRE affiliate. Let me direct you once again to the three criteria below.

2. As has already been explained several times in this and other threads, most free muds have a definite problem making themselves visible, because:
a) There are over 1000 free muds listed here and on TMC, of which only a small percentage are high quality, non-stock, long-term projects, which in turn makes it hard for these quality FREE muds to stand out against the grey mass.
b) FREE muds don't have the funds for plastering their banners all over the Mud realated sites like the commercial Muds do. In addition to this they have to compete with commercial muds like the IRE games painting themselves out as 'free', which probably nets a fair amount of unsuspecting new players, or IRE wouldn't be so aggressive about keeping the label.

And, as KaVir already pointed out, nobody has suggested that the FREE muds would leave TMS or TMC, only an additional resource, centered around them.

And since the thread got spammed - AGAIN - a couple of pages, here is the list again, with The Dragon's Den included, (sorry about that).

CRITERIA
1. No in game advantages are sold by the Administrators for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

4 Dimensions - 4dimensions.org:6000 -
Aabahran - 216.136.9.8:1848 -
Abandoned Realms - 204.209.44.8:9000 -
Adventures Unlimited - tharel.net:5005 -
Armageddon - ginka.armageddon.org:4050 -
Avendar - avendar.com:9999 -
Awakened Worlds - awakenedworlds.net:4000 -
Carrion Fields - carrionfields.com:9999 -
Clandestine - mud.clandestinemud.com:9476 -
Discworld - discworld.atuin.net:23 -
Dimension 2 - asj.mudmagic.com:6666 -
Everwar - everwar.dune.net:4242 -
Godwars II - godwars2.com:3000 -
Harshlands - muddled.harshlands.net:5555 -
Legendmud - legendmud.org:9999 -
Medieval Times - mud.lordtrox.com:8500 -
MUME - mume.pvv.org:23 -
Realms of Despair - realms.game.org:4000 -
Resident Evil:Outbreak - tyro.genesismuds.com:5300 -
Shadows of Isildur - middle-earth.us:23 -
Shattered Kingdoms - mud.shatteredkingdoms.org:1996 -
Sloth mud - slothmud.org:6101 -
The Dragon's Den - dden.discordia.org:2222 -
The secret of Atlas - atlasmud.com:4445 -
Wheel of Time MUD - 207.234.147.46:2222 -
Unwritten legends - -
Zebedee - -

I was asked, so I answered. Was I supposed to do something else? I have no problem with CF being on the list, it make no difference to me.

Isn't this the entire point in TMS? To rank the higher quality most popular MUDs the highest? You already have precisely the list that makes the higher quality MUDs stand out.

IRE can't 'net' a player who doesn't want to play a pay-for-perks game. And once again, do you actually know if banners are a bigger incentive to play than the lower cost?

Because it's already available to both the commercial and the non-commercial muds.  Commercial muds can also afford large banners and paid adverts.  This proposal is to give the non-commercial muds their own additional advertising option.

Well the fact that the commercial muds tend to have far more players than the non-commercial muds is a bit of a giveaway.

However you're making two assumptions of your own.  Firstly, you're assuming that having a cost is a negative influence, yet every time the subject of pay-for-perks/play arises there are plenty of people saying that they prefer that option.  Secondly, you're assuming that this proposal needs to be justified or somehow balanced out against paid advertising - it doesn't, any more than the commercial muds should have to justify buying banner space.

I can see the additional advertising as an advantage to commercial MUDs who can afford it.

The total of the non-commercial MUDs have more players than the total of the commercial MUDs though, don't they? Commercial MUDs either stay afloat or they don't so you'll likely see a tendency for them to commonly have a healthy number of players - it's a prequisite to their existance.

I think generally most players consider having a cost a very negative thing. You'll note they don't say that having a cost is innately an advantage - they say it in relation to that cost providing a higher quality. I'm not discussing under the assumption that non-commercial MUDs are lower quality though.

Secondly, I'm not condemning the effort, I just don't understand the basis and I'm interested in having it explained to me. I'm in no position to judge nor do I wish to. The question for me being, are non-commercial MUDs really placed at a disadvantage to commercial MUDs to warrant some sort of balancing that many people have condemned TMS for not providing?

Please stop derailing Anitra's advertising thread.

Anitra has her criteria, and is talking about starting a new, independent website with a different focus based on those criteria. You are equally welcome to start a new website called "Matt's Proxies", where IRE staff can discuss loyally repeating Matt's methods of derailing advertising threads, and Anitra wouldn't get to decide who can or cannot participate there.

You can say "I'm not condemning the effort", but I guess I don't believe you.

In a community environment run by someone who seems to pander to those who pay the most in advertising(IRE), when IRE's leader tends to bash non-commercial MUDs and has a very bad reputation for trying to harm the community here outside of his own game - the non profit-turning, 100% Free MUDs deserve the extra advertising.

We have asked, many, many times for Syno to create a choice in the Ranked MUDs list that allows you to seperate the Pay-For-Perks, Pay-to-Play, and 100% Free MUD models, to further improve this MUDing resource site.

We have been ignored, for reasons that we can only(and have already) speculate.

Since this list was not created, we are using the Advertising for Players section of the forum to support the vast majority of the MUDing community that is dedicated towards 100% Free Text-MMORPGs/MUDs, and wants a list of many of those quality games to try out.

I think it is a pretty simple concept, but I hope that spells it out for you. Now let's get back on topic - know any good 100% Free MUDs, Hardoyu?

Just as the additional advertising proposed here would be an advantage for non-commercial muds.

Hard to say, and I'm not sure what that has to do with this issue.

Quite - but while the crappy commercial muds will die, the crappy non-commercial muds will often just hang around.  If players are looking for free muds, then sure it's better to direct them to the higher quality ones than to let them stumble across the stock ones?

Quality and reliability are two often-cited factors.  But another, particularly in regard to pay-for-perks, is that they like being able to buy things because they don't have the time to play the mud as much as many other players.

I don't think that's the important question.  The important question is: Do enough of the non-commercial mud owners believe that they're at a disadvantage, and do they believe so strongly enough to put aside their differences and do something about it?

I was discussing it with Anitra and I also like that idea, Nass. It could even be taken further in-time, so that there was an entire resource site dedicated not only to furthering the future of innovative MUDing, but 100% Free MUDs, and also respecting the ethics of the community. While I appreciate the vast resources the other sites give, with joint effort, I am sure that a competing site(competing and co-operative, obviously) could be created that would not "sell out", as many of us feel other sites have.

Valg, you tell me to stop derailing and follow up with a jab? You're not above what you describe, so please spare me.

Donathin, I've done my best to be perfectly respectable during the discussion, maybe you can respond in kind? Your constant attacks on IRE and it's playerbase are anything but justified and quite offensive.

Godwars II is already listed.

That's actually the answer I was interested in as it makes practical sense to me.

Great list Anitra...

Great idea Nass. It would be great to have a site dedicated to 100% free muds. I hope it would have a forum for us to get together and enjoy some civil conversations...If help is needed in this effort, please feel free to get ahold of me.

Everyone here realizes how important advertising is to a mud. It just so happens 99% of free muds simply can't afford it. Our hosting costs alone are near $1,000. Since this is entirely out of the creator's pockets, spending money on advertising is not really an option for us hobbyists.

Anitra and I were speaking further on the matter;

The one thing I would tread cautiously with(not for any reason of distrust, merely principle) is affiliating the new resource site to a MUD itself. Perhaps an independent and respected forum (like MudLabs for instance) could join and affiliate with the resource site. If KaVir had any suggestions or wanted to get involved, we would need a staff and group of non-commercial developers to take various responsibilities and make sure that we set any differences aside to make a difference in the community of Free MUDing.

Until something along that line is ironed out(and planned carefully so that it can compete/co-operate with TMC/TMS/MudMagic and not fail), let's continue updating and improving the quality of our list. Keep up the good ideas, though, everyone.

Mafia Life is also free, if I'm not mistaken, and popular on the TMS site. I've never played it personally, but know a few players who enjoy its mafia-esque environment very much.

Like Carrion Fields, Mafia Life sells things on their website to pay for their costs. I mention it because Antira described the MUDs she wanted to list as MUDs in which the server fees are paid out of the admins own pockets, on the starting post of this thread.

--matt

Try to keep up, Matt. Anitra has clarified her position on this repeatedly.

I actually just went in and edited my first post.

Maybe that will stop the_logos from telling me what my intentions are with the list. It's funny in a way that he still should claim to have this insight in my brain, even after I've clarified my position several times.

But anything is good as an excuse to derail a thread that he doesn't like, I suppose.

By the way, here are the criteria and the list again, for those who don't like to wade through pages of trolling.

CRITERIA
1. No in game advantages are sold by the Administrators for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

4 Dimensions - 4dimensions.org:6000 -
Aabahran - 216.136.9.8:1848 -
Abandoned Realms - 204.209.44.8:9000 -
Adventures Unlimited - tharel.net:5005 -
Armageddon - ginka.armageddon.org:4050 -
Avendar - avendar.com:9999 -
Awakened Worlds - awakenedworlds.net:4000 -
Carrion Fields - carrionfields.com:9999 -
Clandestine - mud.clandestinemud.com:9476 -
Discworld - discworld.atuin.net:23 -
Dimension 2 - asj.mudmagic.com:6666 -
Everwar - everwar.dune.net:4242 -
Godwars II - godwars2.com:3000 -
Harshlands - muddled.harshlands.net:5555 -
Legendmud - legendmud.org:9999 -
Medieval Times - mud.lordtrox.com:8500 -
MUME - mume.pvv.org:23 -
Realms of Despair - realms.game.org:4000 -
Resident Evil:Outbreak - tyro.genesismuds.com:5300 -
Shadows of Isildur - middle-earth.us:23 -
Shattered Kingdoms - mud.shatteredkingdoms.org:1996 -
Sloth mud - slothmud.org:6101 -
The Dragon's Den - dden.discordia.org:2222 -
The secret of Atlas - atlasmud.com:4445 -
Wheel of Time MUD - 207.234.147.46:2222 -
Unwritten legends - -
Zebedee - -

Could anyone else who is interested in admining or participating in a website for free muds pop me a mail please, as I've had several already.

My aim is to make it as little work as possible and for it to promote free muds without it having overly close ties to any particular mud or promoting one free mud more so than any others.

Cheers

Nass

Small error: The URL for Clandestine is:

The one given above doesn't work, at least for me.

Thanks Valq - I meant to make that post last night and was just too delirious after too many postings in one day. That's the right address for Clandestine's website url.

Another broken link is Resident Evil:Outbreak at

Their hosting company doesn't have them as a client on their list, either:


I did a quick Google for it, but if there is a MUD by that name, it gets swamped by a PS2 game on the same name. Unless someone knows their address (or the correct name, if that's what is botched), might want to cut them for now.

The MUD's name is Residentil Evil: Reincarnate.

Outbreak was probably stuck in the posters head. The website's currently being remodelled, however the info on it is below. I'm not truly sure if the MUD should be added - while I have faith in my affiliates and staff members to do quality work, one of the pre-requisites for Anitra's list was that the MUD was established. RER has been open for a month in Alpha-Test phase and certainly shows much promise. Perhaps, though, it shouldn't be added to the list until it is out of testing-phase and 100% open and advertising?

Never-the-less;

Resident Evil: Reincarnate
zombies.servebeer.com Port: 8428

It should also be noted that certain other posters (who have players to lose by the advancement of the ideas and lists in this thread) are attempting to flood the forum with posts to keep this thread off of the main TMS page. I encourage everyone to actively discuss the future of a possible resource site for 100% Free MUDs, as well as the list, and possible advertising ideas that we can band together and work on for MUDs that do not have the same cash-flow as commercial leeching MUDs.

Unfortunately, Leio's the one who runs the Clandestine page on TMS and got lazy. I'd whap him, but he's in Estonia and the like, making it difficult to reach him physically. What ideas do we have for the list's summary set-up and the like, Anitra?

[double-posted on accident, post removed]

You know, I happen to be someone who thinks the list in this thread is an excellent idea, as well as the thread itself. People who want 100% free, no money-involved MUDs should be able to find them.

But using the TMS forums to plan out a competing site strikes me as pretty disrespectful towards Adam/Synozeer.

Competing and co-operative, just as TMS and TMC and MudMagic compete and co-operate. Adam has not joined in on these discussions and it is not in his financial best interests to do 100% Free MUDs a favor, therefor we are taking the next logical step after months and months of flame-arguments back-and-forth on the forums about how there should be seperate lists and the like.

I'm sure you can appreciate the new direction being taken as opposed to the old, less progressive, more head-smashing-into-brick-wall cycle this subject has been in for so long now.

Threshold: April 14 2006,18:26

Why? We have requested over and over again to get a search option for the 100% FREE muds added to the search engine, and it's just getting ignored. It's a solution that seems both logical, fair and generally beneficial for both prospective players and the owners of FREE Muds, and it's a solution that most of us would prefer.

Yet one single person apparently manages to stop it, by leaning on Synozeer and derailing every single thread on the topic.

Heck - most of us would probably be content if the IRE Muds just stopped misrepresenting themselves as 'free' on the listing.

A separate website to promote the FREE muds is the second best solution. It may never come into existence at all, but if it does happen, I don't see it as serious competition to TMS, rather as an affiliate.

And there is still the off chance, that Synozeer might read this thread and recognise a true movement from the grass roots, were a lot of otherwise disparate people bond together over an issue that is really important to them. Who knows, he might even change his mind about the search engine.

And hey - nobody can say that we didn't try to get things arranged on TMS first.

And, on a side note, wasn't that closed discussion board of Matt's (the Mind's Eye or whatever it was called) also planned on these forums? You were a part of that, as far as I recall. Why wasn't that equally disrespectful?

Here we go again, IRE does NOT misrepresent themselves as being 'free.' They correctly represent themselves as being 'free to play' which is VERY different from 'free.'

Before we get off-topic again, remember that the point of all of this is to create a list that is more specific to the actual economic model difference betweens MUDs, than what many would consider to be an ambiguous(or at least, elusive) term "Free-to-Play" that would apply to nearly all MUDs.

Let's not get arguing about that again, if you get bored just go back a few pages and read what's already been said.

If you insist on twisting language away from common-sense usage, don't be upset that not everyone can keep track of what you're talking about.

Go up to someone unfamiliar with the industry, and tell them you have two games.  One is "free", and the other is "free to play".  I just did this for myself, and I suspect the reaction you will get will be similar to Ms. Valg's reaction: "What's the difference?"

Could you cite an unaffiliated source which draws this line?  I Googled a couple attempts, but kept getting stuff like this highest-ranked link:

Therefore, this site is fully devoted to listing only absolutely free games. You will not find any shareware games or demo games here. Nor do we accept games that involve real money. All games at GameHippo.com are free to download and free to play without restrictions.

I honestly tried to dig a bit, but I can't find any official-looking source which makes this distinction.  I did find a blog mention using the phrase Matt uses among other game developers ("Free To Play, Pay For Stuff"), but that strikes me as very different.  I can also find a couple games which are pay-for-perks and describe themselves as "Free To Play", but of course they have an incentive to (mis)represent their product that way.  Then again I find a lot of games like Urban Dead which describe themselves as "Free to play" but aren't pay-for-perks at all.

That said, this is probably worth its own thread.  Feel free to start one where this distinction is made.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

Ladies, gents

I asked Crystal to set up a forum for us and she's kindly done so at - and I would like to invite anyone who admins or runs for a noncommercial MUD to register there, so we can take this discussion further. Now the only way this is going to work is if we work together so please leave egoes at the door and let's help each other.

The aim is a site which helps noncommercial muds gain publicity, players and advertising. I've already bought a top level domain and hosting, so it's going to happen, but the success of the entire exercise depends on people stepping forward.

Cheers

Nass

I think it benefits us to keep this conversation going here, as well.

Here is a thought.

For the list to be even further useful to potential players, there should be a short characterisation for each of the game on the list.

So far most of the Muds on the list have been submitted by other people than the actual owners. This to me is a good thing, since it shows that solidarity and sense of community still exist among the free Muds. But the decision about which parts of the Mud to highlight in a description is best taken by the owners.

So we are asking the Muds on the list to submit a short description of it on this thread, which can later be used if and when the Website for FREE Muds gets set up.

Please try to be concise, and try to stick to the three headers below if possible:

1. THEME (Medieval, fantasy, scifi, timetravels, etc.)
2. FOCUS OF THE MUD (RPI, hack’n’slash, exploring, quests, PvP, PK etc.)
2. FEATURES AND QUALITIES (What particular features in the code and/or the zones would you like to highlight)

And if possible also try to submit a one-line description of the Mud.

I like that set-up, yeah Anitra. I'll work on it for my MUDs on the list.

Not to sidetrack, but how can you have an RPI with OOC channels? At first blush, that sounds like a nun with a penis piercing.

The OOC channels on AL are policed rather strictly, we also frown upon people using OOC coordination methods and try to provide as many IC means as we can. Any discussion about IC things, ingredients, locations, information about your character is squashed out by the rest of the community, or in the case of a troll, by an admin. We also don't provide an OOC command, so listening to OOC chatter is an opt-in feature.

God Wars II

1. THEME : dark fantasy, supernatural beings fighting for supremacy at the dawn of the ages

2. FOCUS OF THE MUD : PK and GoP (goal-oriented play)

3. FEATURES AND QUALITIES :
-- Custom codebase.
-- Roomless world.
-- Manual, action-points based combat system where players control 4 different locations.
-- High level of character customization, through an interconnected system of talents, powers and knowledges.
-- Randomly generated dungeons.
-- Customizable minizones - home planes.
-- Boosts that casual players can benefit from.
-- Semi-randomly generated magic equipment.

4. STATUS : Open beta.

And a question regarding the icons - what dimensions are you looking for? I've noticed the ones you have on the site now are 32x32 pixels, would 50x50 (my avatar here) be too large?

1. THEME : Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time

2. FOCUS OF THE MUD : PK within RP setting

3. FEATURES AND QUALITIES :
- 3 sided racewar true to Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
- Outstanding and well balanced PK
- Male channelers shunned and hunted by all, coded insanity
- 43 roleplay clans
- 320 meticulously crafted zones true to series
- Large playerbase and community
- 100% free at every point

4. STATUS : Open, at

Oh noes... the RPI police are on to you...!

SlothMUD

1. THEME : set in an original world, in medieval ages

2. FOCUS OF THE MUD : hack’n’slash, exploring, questing

3. FEATURES AND QUALITIES :
-- Online since January 1991(One of the oldest running Diku Muds)
-- Over 300 zones consisting of 25,000+ hand-crafted rooms and 8,000+ creatures
"The world itself is very large, well-written, and has an air of novelty I haven't seen for a long time." TMC Reviewer Ingrid Vertow
-- Astrological event system(complete solar system simulator with 4 other planets)
-- Unique and well thought out magic system (Seven layers of Strata- Channeling, Shaping, Summoning, Healing, Enhancement, Necromancy)
-- Mob lairs and caches(creatures hide and protect their treasures)
-- MCCP and MXP protocols
-- MUDL - A one of a kind internal programming language that allows Immortals to continually create a dynamic and challenging experience.
-- Home of Wintin

4. STATUS : Open, at

Clandestine MUD


1. THEME: set in a dark gothic, sci-fi/fantasy world blend

2. FOCUS: religious war(open-ended group vs group PK and RP), exploration/adventure

3. FEATURES:

- 50 Races and 30 classes to pick from, multi-classing available
- 10 religions available, should you decide to join a cause
- Medium-to-Large playerbase
- Intense Group PvP Combat and encouraged RP
- Uncountable Secrets to explore and find within the Original World
- Open since 1997, winner of TMC MUD of the Month and 2004 Festival of MUD Award of Excellence
- Very unique spells & skills that you will not find elsewhere
- Huge variety of mini-games for your amusement
- Advanced Crafts such as Blacksmithing, Spellcrafting, Technocrafts, Animal Calling, Soulwalking
- Very advanced and unique questing system
- Living Weapons that grow along with the player
- Fusion available, allowing two players to combine into one powerful character temporarily

4. STATUS: open at

Avendar: the Crucible of Legends

1. THEME:
- medieval fantasy adventure

2. FOCUS:
- exploration, character development and achievement
- epic RP, politics and intrigue
- intense PvP combat

3. FEATURES:
- an expansive, 100% original world
- 25 carefully balanced guild classes which draw upon
830+ unique skills and spells
- 10 races with well-developed cultures and histories
- "House" organizations in constant competition to
possess the 10 Stones of Power
- many scripted quests and periodic staff-run quests
- special features made available at character creation
for players who follow rules and contribute to the RP
environment, including
- hard-core mode (earn x2 xp, but can only die once)
- being born with a special taint/blessing of a deity
- choosing the chaja race
- customizing an heirloom which grows in power with
your character
- small-to-medium playerbase: characters make many friends
(and enemies), but can still influence world events
and won't be lost in the crowd
- tentacles. Lots and lots of tentacles.

4. STATUS:
- open at

Here is the description of 4 DIMENSIONS, since Molly isn't here to post it herself:

1. THEME :
Time Travel, with a central Travel Agency to facilitate things for the Time Tourists

2. FOCUS OF THE MUD :
Primary: Exploring, Questing and Trading,
Secondary: goal-driven Hack&slash, RP and restricted PK (in that order)

3. FEATURES AND QUALITIES :
- 4 very large and totally original worlds, (200+ zones), well written, with many in-depth factors
- Numerous advanced, script-driven Questing and Trading options built into the zones
- Code and script driven occupations, like mining, farming, gardening, fishing, lumberjacking, goldpanning etc.
- Many unique and original skills and spells
- A rather unique 4-tiered remort system, where you can eventually reach Grand Master of all classes
- Many different options to customize character, prompt, channels and commands
- Various types of vehicles and on-line maps to facilitate travel
- Pets and mounts that are a lot more useful than in the average mud, even customized ones available
- Small to medium, but very dedicated playerbase
- Unique Mud School and Quest Academy as introduction to new players

4. STATUS :
Fully operational since 1997, at

We still need to fill in the info for more of these MUDs. C'mon Admins.

I see Isle of the Mists in the Top Ten list currently. I've not noticed this MUD before, strangely. Any idea if it meets our idea of quality and should be added to the list? They seem to have a stable playerbase with a H&S focus and many active staff-run in-game quests.