Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Giving out the rewards doesn't really concern me as far as the voting sites go. That can happen without anybody knowing anyway. What is really harmful about giving out rewards is you claim to be a roleplay enforced mud and no true roleplayer would accept an IC reward for an OOC action. So it just degenerates your muds reputation of having a good clean IC atmosphere for roleplayers.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Appologies for my English plummeting to new depths and my post ending up looking like a sarcastic stab.. I of course meant professional and contrite.. NOT contradictory

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

did... did... I ..can it possible... how...

NOOOOOOOO

my GOD, how did RPI / RPE come into THIS THREAD!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

In post #27 Lasher explicitly clarified that rewards for global events were not permitted, going on to give the example "nothing like "We will run double experience this weekend if we are in the top 5" etc." Ironically enough, that was the exact reward you'd offered less than a week earlier (and indeed for the previous few months).

At that point you knew the rules, and you knew you were breaking them (and let's not even get into your "If you have access to additional computers or IPs or whatever, that is great" comment). Most people in your position would keep a low profile and quickly remove the reward offers. If they were feeling particularly honest they might even contact Lasher and explain their mistake. Your response? Post #29, you accused other top 10 muds of cheating:

"Lasher, since you are involved in the thread, what is the status on busting some of these 15-20 people muds that are clearly cheating to be in the top 5 or top 10?"

Two days after your accusation, you posted another reply to your double XP reward thread, reminding people yet again to keep on voting. Another three days later (today) and there was still no sign of you removing the rewards.

Your recent posts seem to imply that you were the one who contacted Lasher, but in fact the only reason he knew you were cheating is that I contacted him - and the only reason I didn't post this "days ago" is because I felt you deserved the chance to stop offering rewards, as you'd promised Lasher you would. I should have known better.

I would also like to respond to your comment in the negative vote you just gave me:

"You really are a disgusting asshole. How about a PM first? How about asking Lasher? No, you have to go for a public slam. Your negativity is POISON for the mud community."

It is people like you who are poison. You cheat the rankings, while hurling unfounded accusations at the muds who have earned their rank fair and square. It would have reflected much better on if you'd dealt with this yourself, privately, when I gave you the chance. But you clearly weren't willing to do so.

The voting rules are there for the good of the community. They only work if everyone follows them.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

So if we remove the posts, we have no integrity. If we DON'T remove the posts, we have no integrity. Wow. Its tough to win, huh?

We apologized directly to Lasher for not knowing about the rules change. We did that BEFORE your post here. Lasher owns this site, so we felt that was the right person to go to. It is OBVIOUS that we had no idea about the rules update since I outed myself on page 1 of this thread, and the promotions were PUBLIC posts on Threshold's forum. No attempt to imply otherwise will hold water.

We have also apologized in this thread multiple times now. We have also removed the threads in question and explained our error to our own players. It was an honest mistake. We were operating under the old rules which allowed mud-wide rewards but not personalized rewards for people who definitely voted. People make mistakes. We made one. We owned up to it, apologized to everyone involved, and made the appropriate changes.

That's not enough apparently. What is enough? When is enough enough for you, Kavir? It appears to me that once you don't like someone, NOTHING is ever enough.

As for your attempts to make this personal, I'm not going down that road. You may continue to do so if it makes you feel better.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

If you had removed the posts offering the rewards, then nobody would have known other than you, me, Lasher and Icculus (as a TMC auditor it was my responsibility to report that you were cheating on the TMC rankings as well). The whole thing could have been quietly swept aside as a mistake.

But you left the voting reward threads for five days after you'd been made aware of the rules, and actually continued reminding people to vote on them - you continued asking your players to vote, leaving them under the impression that they would be rewarded for it. That's not a mistake, that's an intentional flaunting of the rules, and an insult to other muds on the TMS rankings - muds you publically accused of cheating, despite having absolutely no evidence of them doing so.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Here is what happened. You can choose to believe me or not. That's up to you.

1) Page 1 of this thread: I posted that mud wide rewards are ok, just not personal rewards. I was wrong. Obviously I would not have posted that if I thought we were doing something sneaky.

2) Lasher sent me an email that someone reported us for having a double XP promotion. I replied back that yes, we used to do that, before someone linked to Lasher's 2007 post on page 1. We apologized to him for our mistake. We told him we had already ended all such promotions. We informed our players about this online. At this point, we thought what was reported to Lasher was our IN GAME announcements about double xp for voting position. Lasher accepted our apologies and believed that we had no intent to break the rules.

3) Today, I got an email from Adam of TMC that actually included the email someone sent reporting us (with email address removed). That report showed links to 3 forum posts from the last few months. As soon as we realized those forum posts were the problem, we deleted them. We then made a new post, saying we would no longer have any mud promotions for vote position. We posted this on our public forums, private forums, in game boards, and in game channels.

4) A couple hours later, I saw the post here be Kavir for the first time. Milawe and I have BOTH apologized to the mud community for our mistake. It was an HONEST mistake. Lasher already accepted our apology and believed that it was an honest mistake.

5) You can insist that we were deliberately cheating if you want. But if we were deliberately cheating, I wouldn't have made those posts on our PUBLIC forums, and I wouldn't have said on page 1 of this thread that mud-wide rewards were ok. The difference between cheating and a mistake is intent. It is pretty clear we had no intent to cheat. As the months go forward, I think you will see that our vote performance will be pretty much the same with or without those promotions. They were a fun thing that I am sad are gone, but I am sad for our players - not because of the effect on vote totals.

6) I apologize for my rude private message. I am ashamed of it. I should not have said such things even in a private message.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Please can this thread end? There is only one person now who could post something of true value: Lasher. If he does not wish to weigh in, then there is no point arguing back and forth about whether or not Threshold has done enough to atone for the error, whether it was blatant rules-ignoring, etc, etc, etc. Let's not have unnecessary flame wars, please!

Thanks!

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I have to agree that this whole thread cannot help muds, tms, or certain posters in any way shape or form. Points have be raised, fingers waggled, doubts cast, appologies made blah blah.

Everyone is now a lot wiser as to the rules... and now its time for bed, night all!

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Hopefully, this thread serves at least as encouragement to MUDs who may be stretching the limitations of the voting rules too far to make some changes in an effort to comply with fairness. I think that that is a good thing - especially for any MUDs that may be just those few steps away from breaking into the Top (Insert#) to get some publicity and perhaps a boost to a low (bot loyal) playerbase.

I think that everyone can agree that that is in the best interest of the community as a whole. Matt would probably disagree, but Matt doesn't post here much anymore.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Delerak, you are an embarrassment to the MUD community. I'm beginning to think you got nuked from that game and can't get over it. If you have something valuable to add to the thread, do so, but childish remarks like that are useless.

I will say in conjunction with Donathinfrye I hope that some of the lesser known MUDs that I find thoroughly enjoyable will get some publicity. My vote goes to a somewhat different game that takes you through time. Always one of my favs.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

At the risk of getting off-topic: I've also always really valued 4Dimensions and Godwars II for their originality. Their (and a few other MUDs, some now sadly defunct) out-of-the-box gameplay is what is inspiring our Atonement staff's fresh approach to re-inventing what the RPI genre (sorry Newworlds :p) is capable of.

Back on topic: Perhaps time to let this thread die. Hopefully, everyone's learned a bit and can focus on what (most) of us have in common - and that is a divested interest in the betterment of the community as a whole, even when our POVs clash. Vote cheating isn't good, everyone makes mistakes - and most mistakes can be fixed. Integrity means a lot to most people here, even if the average player may be blissfully unaware of the community as a whole (something we could all use to work on, in my opinion).

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

You just couldn't resist, could you?:cool:
Because of your professional and supportive attitude to the community in general, it is likely Atonement will be the only game of that genre I would spend more than 10 minutes reviewing and if worth it, promoting. There are a number of players on NWA that like a change in scenery at times and I like to have options for them.

To stay on topic: Rember to VOTE!!!

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Just being honest. Threshold has made it very clear of his animosity towards myself (even though he doesn't know me personally), so I am satisfied seeing Kavir completely own him and his game.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Thanks for the kind words, DonathinFry and Newworlds! :-)

I appreciate it so much more, since you both run quality games.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Using a list of TOR proxies only, I ran it up against the voting database. Avalon MUD had votes from 934 unique IP addresses this month. Of those 934, 894 of them were from TOR proxies. Avalon is no longer validated for voting in the TMS listings.

By comparison, the next highest MUD for "Tor Votes" was 7 out of 632 unique IP addresses then 4 out of 519 unique IP addresses. Interestingly, the other 4 MUDs in the top 5 all had zero which surprised me.

I have not repeated this exercise for other open proxy lists yet. No idea how good it is compared to other proxy sites but I have an old subscription to 'xroxy.com' which I guess never expires because they email me a new list every week.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Why not just remove the proxy votes? Otherwise it becomes an effective tactic for "assassinating" rival listings. It's also rather arbitrary for one mud to receive a gentle slap on the wrist for cheating, while another gets instantly and permanently banned. Was Avalon contacted and given the chance to explain before being removed?

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I would have to agree with Kavir, while it looks incriminating that they are the only MU* with substantial amounts of proxy votes that were in the top 20, it would be very easy now for someone with an axe to grind to take down all the muds in the top 20 with a concerted proxy campaign. Simply removing the votes and informing the game owner of the reasons why those votes were removed would seem the most prudent thing to do. Unless you can trace the source of the proxying back to the game owners, its hard to know whether this is sanctioned or just a player going one out to make his or her favorite game more popular.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I have to agree with KaVir too.
In my mind, an owner actively urging the players to cheat is far more serious than players doing dumb things on their own, in a misguided attempt to help their game. So the punishment should be in proportion to that. And at the very least be similar for all muds caught breaking the rules; if you ban one, then you have to ban all.

Perhaps you are just overreacting a bit, because you thought that proxy votes were being eliminated by the code.
And this could very well be a player acting on their own without the knowledge of the owner, so at the very least the owners should be informed and given a chance to talk some sense into their players first.

KaVir's suggestion of just removing all proxy votes and then informing the owner, is actually a very good one. Of course, if the nuisance continues even after this, a harsher action should be in order. And hanging them out to dry in the discussion thread is totally OK, in my opinion. Cheating is cheating, whoever does it.

Apart from that, just the thought about some Mud using this to miscredit the opposition, shouldd make you think twice.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

An automated solution which compares voting IPs against a known proxy list and discards those votes which match would probably be the best solution. However, it does bring up the wider issue of how far should individual games be held responsible for the actions of their players? If the admin of Avalon were to come back and say that they were completely unaware of this activity how do you prove otherwise? If you hold them responsible then as KaVir mentions it does leave the possibility of someone maliciously cheating on behalf of a game they don't like.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Generally speaking, I agree with everything that has been said so far. I usually quietly deal with these things, communicate with the MUD in question, make a decision.

I posted because:

A) There was a definite implication in this thread that 'nobody cares'. Same in some PMs and Emails received based on this thread and voting in general.

B) This wasn't a mud that suddenly started to see votes increase due to a malicious player. It came out of nowhere, got listed, ranked in the top 5 almost constantly with <20 players online. The ratio of proxy votes was so high that if you take them out of the equation Avalon would barely be in rankings at all, so same net effect.

I probably shouldn't have posted, but I did. Moving forward, quietly dropping these of course makes the most sense, which was actually happening at one point but stopped working. I also completely overlooked TOR in the original setup - the proxy list service I was using did not cover TOR anyway.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Routinely removing all the proxy votes would remove the incentive of doing it.

If nothing is gained, either for the game itself, (supposing it's done to get a higher position on the list), or for the hypothetical rival doing it maliciously, then there is no incentive for doing it at all.

And, at least in my country, one is innocent until proven guilty.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Hey, I'm a player of WoTMUD.

I'd just like to thank you for the great advertising of calling us cheaters without taking the time to actually look at our mud and its player base. Firstly I'd like to take you back a few years to when WoTMUD was competing for number 1 on THIS database against Achaea I believe it was. Eventually as you do, you kinda think well... Everyone knows we're the best, so I won't bother voting. Hence you lose your place. Recently in a push for recruitment of new players the promotion of voting once more for WoTMUD on top mud sites arose. So we all started voting and yes in just a few days we made number 4 on your database. It's not hard or unreasonable to believe as the lists reset every few weeks or something anyway?

Posting out of jealousy that your own mud is dropping on statistics isn't exactly the way to go about things.

This forum thread on the WoTMUD forums that should show the "push" towards voting in recent days:

For more info please read through our website:

Our MUD is based on the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan and it might interest you to know that the first book of the series is now being made into a movie.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Yes, great advertising. It's gotten you all the way to 97th place on TMC with a whopping 3 votes. Give us a break, your cheating is so obvious it shouts from the penthouse windows.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Errr... We're still in the Top 10, so I have no clue what your talking about. Perhaps the ladder reset and you should spend more time thinking about what you post than actually posting.

Can some Admin please tell Anjanas that we're not cheating? Or can Anjanas actually go to our forums and website and perhaps see how active our mud actually is?

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

You could also point him to , which lists average player numbers for 9 of the 10 muds listed earlier in this thread:

1.

Average (30 Day): 307
Maximum (30 Day): 377
Minimum (30 Day): 234

2.

Average (30 Day): 124
Maximum (30 Day): 186
Minimum (30 Day): 70

3.

Average (30 Day): 170
Maximum (30 Day): 275
Minimum (30 Day): 23

4.

Average (30 Day): 62
Maximum (30 Day): 127
Minimum (30 Day): 34

5.

Average (30 Day): 67
Maximum (30 Day): 121
Minimum (30 Day): 24

6. Avalon: ??? (not listed)

7.

Average (30 Day): 58
Maximum (30 Day): 109
Minimum (30 Day): 19

8.

Average (30 Day): 12
Maximum (30 Day): 20
Minimum (30 Day): 5

9.

Average (30 Day): 78
Maximum (30 Day): 80
Minimum (30 Day): 77

10.

Average (30 Day): 26
Maximum (30 Day): ?
Minimum (30 Day): ?

Note that the lack of min/max data for Shadows of Isildur suggests the average number is likely an estimate rather than calculated, and may be out of date or outright wrong.

The other muds are usually checked daily I believe, so they may be inaccurate if the MUDStats bot happens to log on during your off-peak hours. Some listings are checked hourly (as you can see from the "Charts & Graphs" tab for Aardwolf), but I think MUDStats only does this if you support . If you feel MUDStats is unfairly representing your mud you might want to consider supporting MSSP (it also gives other information, which crawlers can use to update mud listings, but I don't think any do that yet).

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Not sure about every game but Shadows of Isildur does put up some stats on their website. They used to have charts as well which showed all sorts of information (far more than was needed in my opinion since back then the functionality of the website was lacking in regard to information about the game world) but seem to have trimmed it down to this summary page:

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

What I find interesting about this... if they have rank 8 or 9, and still so few players, how is them being top-ranked actually benefiting the game? By so few, I mean in comparison to games with 60-100 average players etc. My own game is generally 10-20 players as well, cozy with a park-like setting right? ;).

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

The same way it benefits any of the games I imagine - exposure. But how many new players really check out the listings I wonder?

I'd also like to refer back to one of the posts on the first page of the thread:
I think this is a good point. I know I used to do the same thing with Realms of Despair, back when they bothered playing the voting game, even though I hadn't played it for years.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

This seems like it describes the so-called "graveyard shift" numbers of online players, during which the number of players online drops drastically. During graveyard shift, Americans are sleeping in their night and Europeans are at work. Clearly, by logging in to Carrion Fields (CF) and checking some statistics you can see that the statistics presented by KaVir are clearly too low to realistically describe the situation in CF.

I'll toss in some statistics taken directly from the game (these are freely available for any player/character by logging in to CF and typing commands 'users', 'users playerbase' and 'users logon'). Here are the statistics I got:

Users yields minimum of about 15 players and maximum of about 45 players for last 24 hours and claiming average of 30 players online.

Users playerbase claims that the number of active characters in CF is about 1000 (statistics over 52 weeks were graphically presented). The game automatically deletes any character that hasn't logged in in a month.

Users logon yields following information:

Total Logons 216 characters
Average Logon Length 53 minutes
Median Logon Length 42 minutes
Carrion Fields started up at Sat Nov 7 03:35:05 2009 (CST)
System time is Sat Nov 7 12:56:38 2009 (CST)


This totals 11448 minutes online for all characters during the uptime (since last crash/reboot) of 561,53 minutes, yielding an average of 20,38 players online all the time (the game peak hours are not included in this calculation). The MUD peak hours are not included in this number due to the small amount of presented data. AFK players are automatically kicked from the server so you can assume everyone in CF to be active in the game when they are online.

There was 26 players visible to me online when I checked and my friend claimed that there was 36 players online some time later. The game boasts with 80+ players online (see Grobbak's ad here at TMS) during the peak times. Personally, I don't play the peak times and thus have seen a peak of this magnitude only twice or so during the five years I've been around (I haven't played very actively for last two years). Personally, I would say that seeing 10-60 players online isn't too uncommon, depending on when you play.

Furthermore, I counted the number of user accounts in CF's fansite forum in (an unofficial site not maintained by the game staff). The number of accounts that had checked the forums that day was about 130, with about 280 or so accounts checking the forums within that month. has a voting reminder that periodically asks users to vote, counting from the last time the user clicked the vote link there. Due to this reminder, many of CF's votes to TMS come from that site (part of the votes come via the game's Official website, which doesn't remind people to vote beyond having the button on the site). Personally, I have never felt any pressure or obligation to vote for CF due to the actions of the game staff nor have I seen any active endorsement of cheating in CF-related forums.

Thus, I think that Anjanas's claim of CF cheating with its votes is false. In addition, I would like to ask Anjanas to refrain from making accusations based on guesswork against others without knowing the facts or having any actual evidence in the future. Please, report any game you think is cheating for some reason to Lasher, but refrain from public accusations and leave it to people with the tools to do so dig up the truth.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I hear you on CF, I personally didn't think they were doing anything odd, I just wondered why the stats seemed so low as far as players online. I know the Mudstats site seems pretty accurate on mine, although it doesn't account for invisible people (or doesn't seem to). But it does seem to update quite regularly, so the 'average' would seem to be close to correct?
Back to the OP's post though, it seems like a witch-hunt. Although, at least one of them proved to be accurate with 90+% of it's votes being proxy. Perhaps Lasher can just set up the voting so it doesn't include any votes from any IP's on the proxy list.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I have seen disagreements on this website before, but this comment is low.

I dont see any evidence of cheating, WoT has been around for a long time, it is officially endorsed by the author, and is based on a very popular series. Just because the admin have activly engaged on a promotion to get new blood, and the loyal player base have responded is not grounds for cheating. It doesnt take more than a cursory glance at their forums and website to realise that WoT has a much more active community than most of the other MUD's in the top ten have. I have personally never played it, but the website makes it seem like a very attractive prospect and will probably be the first mud in a year or so that I have logged onto... when I have some spare time.

I am sure TMS owners/admin will admit they are not the centre of the MUD universe, and being in the top 20 is not a sure sign of a great mud.. just a mud with a more effective voting scheme. (please dont think I am saying the top 20 are NOT great muds.. some are brilliant).

If WoT decided to really push for votes, I am sure they would probably be in the top 3 on a regular basis.

Being pushed with TMS votes on muds I have played I found quite annoying, and I am sure it is a difficult thing for game owners to have to ask for their players to take a little time away (even if it is measure in mins) from the game to help market it.

All accusations of cheating should be blocked by moderators unless they come with hard facts, not made up fiction, and that all posts by Anjanas should be moderated before being made public.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I play WoTMUD. I'm not sure how that MUD stats page collects it's info, but if it's using a bot to logon and check the who list, it's likely incorrect. Reason being, there's 3 races, and each races only sees a who list for that race. So one might see 50 players, but there's actually 70 players. Plus, there's one (very interesting I might add) area with it's own who list. I believe there's also a stats page on the website, though, that lists accurate numbers if anyone is interested.

In regards to the Mud Connector, and I'm sure it's like this with a few others, we've more or less stop bothering there it seems. The registration appears to make it too tedious for some. Regardless, I still cast my vote there when I remember.

Regardless of the accuracy, that site is still interesting to check every now and then ;)

Also, MudMann, thank you for the kind words towards WoTMUD :)

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

As I said before, if you feel MUDStats is unfairly representing your mud you might want to consider adding support for . Otherwise MUDStats is going to continue displaying the same player numbers, and anyone using their site will use those numbers to judge the popularity of your games.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I don't see any evidence of not cheating. I brought it up. You keep it going. They came on and made all these claims about how great they are and all these players voting so much. Well, Mudmann, I called them on it with there silly 3 votes on TMC and it made them and you cry, apparently. Truth hurts. Proof is in the pudding.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Argumentum ad ignorantiam - one cannot prove a negative, so the burden of proof is on you. If WoTMUD is cheating then show the evidence, otherwise I suggest you withdraw your accusations.

WoTMUD was in 5th place on TMS. And according to MUDStats, WoTMUD has the 5th highest average population of the top 10 muds on TMS. While one might argue the accuracy of the MUDStats data, there is certainly nothing suspicious in the statistics.

Furthermore, Lasher has already said that he's looked into proxy cheating, and removed Avalon as a result - this would suggest that there were no obvious problems with the other listings.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I didn't bring the subject back up. You people keep doing it. I am not a tissue, get the picture? Let the cheaters speak for themselves mister Avatar.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I dont play WoT, I am not crying. The issue was looked into as a result, some people were found to be breaking rules and dealt with accordingly. WoT was not one of them.

You dont have the manners to appologise but keep with the accusations so I had my say as I want it making perfectly clear to any WoT players / admin who may come onto these forums that myself and I am sure others do not in anyway believe they are cheaters.

Thanks for proving what a prat you are. Troll would be too nice a term.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Sticks and stones mister. You are crying and you remind me alot of the boys in gradeschool that used to pull our ponytails just so they could get attention. Keep up the insults it won't change the outcome. Cheaters never prosper and so we see that they aren't. :D

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

You two bickering isn't going to add anything to the thread. Just PM each other if you want to do that.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Not so new, eh?

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

*Chuckle* coming from you that is quite amusing. but your point is quite correct, and this thread is exhausted, welcome BACK to the TMS WoT, you non-cheating crew!

I shall make full use (first time ever on ANY forum) of the wonderful ignore facility so I dont take the bait of the irritating yapping mutt anymore....

.....of course not without that last tempting pull of the pigtail before I cover my ears, stick out my tongue and run of going "nah nah nah cant hear YOU!!!" :-D

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Anjanas, you are a disgrace to yourself, and the bad thing is that you don't even realise it.
Since you made this low watermark post, WoTMud has successfully proved their innocense and kept their position on TMS.

And you still call them cheaters in later posts.

The only so called 'proof' that you offer is that they have a low position on another Mud voting site, TMC.
The only thing that proves is that they don't ask their players to vote on TMC.

Using the same flawed logic, you could also prove that Achaea, who currently holds the #2 position on TMS, are cheaters. They currently are listed as #911 on TMC, with a total of 0 votes.
That only proves that Achaea doesn't send their players to vote on TMC either.
Or are you going to call them cheaters next?

You should apologise to WoTMud, or crawl back into the hole you came from.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

No I will not apologize. The intent of my post worked. The people cheating quickly changed their tactics. Look at my original post. I said that WoT voted 150 times in one night. Has that happened again since my post? No, not even close. And yes, I've watched them. It worked. They didn't stop the cheating but at least slowed it down.

As for Achaea...draw your own conclusion.

Someone suggested a fix to this voting system by going to a TMC style voting system. I concur. Many in the top twenty here don't even make a dent on TMC. You have to ask yourself why and you will find the answer in my original post.

Molly, Mudmann, and Valan your responses to my valid accusations are rude and defensive and exactly what one expects from guilty parties. You may continue to defend the guilty, but it will not make them any less guilty.

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

I was not defensive in either of my two posts, the reason being is because I didn't want to appear biased since I play WoTMUD, and have played it for almost 10 years now. I did, however, point out a couple minor things which really have little to no relevance here. If I came across as rude, I apologize, as that was never my intention.

If you're really interested in why our numbers have dropped some, it's probably because over at WoTMUD there's been no talk about voting in the past week, and not much talk for the week before that. Though that really doesn't concern me much. We know our MUD is great, and we don't need high rankings on TMS to prove it. It's just an added benefit when it does happen.

It is obvious, however, that nothing that anyone says or does here will change your opinion of who is cheating and who isn't, especially when you're the only person who thinks we're cheating and there's people who don't even care for WoTMUD who are still defending it. But I really don't care what you think about it, you're not going to cause me to lose any sleep tonight. Perhaps WoTMUD's PK will, when I get caught up in it and stay up too late, but that's beside the point ;)

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Dont feed the trolls Valan.. you will never get rid of them that way.

It baffles me how I am accused of being a guilty party when I dont even play / admin any of the games concerned. Most bizarre. I am just one of the people with a modicum of common sense that can see things laid out on this issue and draw likely conclusions, and also accept results of investigations.

We should be thankful for our wonderful troll... helps us realise that not matter how pathetic we can be, there is always someone far far worse.

Now shhhhh.. its late in the UK and time for bed!

Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?
 

Well... On WoTMUD we have plenty of trolls. Except not Anjanas type trolls... Our trolls can smell people in their zones, see in the dark, run further than a horse and have a bonus to get 2 extra strength points other races can't get. So our trolls are pretty badass and everyone's welcome to play them. Just know I'll be killing you if you do play one!

Ok... Maybe we do have a few Anjanas' on our forums... But who doesn't? :P