Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Those educated, well thought out words of wisdom solidify my point. Good work.:D Another grand reason for people to put you on ignore. To keep from this thread being railroaded (which is normal for you) for those interested I've posted a full reply to his attack here:

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I have noted on a couple of occasions that yes, I know very little about MUDs of any flavour. This is why I started this thread, to avoid writing an incorrect faq and/or helpfile.

I tried for a good long while, as I see it, to discuss things with Delerak, even though my very first encounter with him on this forum basically amounted to him telling me I was wrong to run my game as MUSH and not a MUD because it didn't do the setting any justice. That was in an ad post and not a discussion, and I found it extremely rude.

In these two latest threads, he has kept making absolute statements, such as "If you're coordinating it, you're acting not roleplaying", and throwing around insults such as "MUSHers really know how to metagame".

So, no, I didn't start the rudeness.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

As I said, "looking back over this thread" the initiation of attitude seemed to stem from you. Delerak was responding to misao's statement which was an example of metagaming. Whether he was rude in another thread or not, your response to him in this thread was initiated with attitude (the "bovine manure" and "ignored").

Well, it's not really an insult considering that a good number of MUSHers do metagame. The same applies to MUDders though as a good number of them frequently do as well.

I also don't know that Delerak was making an absolute statement that all MUSHers metagame but rather that the example given by misao appeared to be metagaming.

It may not have been your intention, but it seemed to me like you did. If you didn't, you did escalate it to dismissiveness based not on any failure on his part to prove his point but rather your dislike, whether warranted or not, of Delerak himself.

Either way, it would probably be a good idea to try and get the discussion back on track by posting some of your work thus far on the FAQ. With any luck, further discussion will focus on that from here on out.

What form do you intend to do it in? Will it be categorized (code differences, IC/OOC, etc.) or just in the form of a bunch of questions?

Jason

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

That's your perception. I don't share it. I saw plenty of rudeness from Delerak.

I am highly dubious that it was not intended as an insult or as a blanket statement about MUSHers, considering Delerak's track record.

I escalated because his style of discussion, which I saw no further reason to engage with since I found it disruptive.

I've taken notes, but not really worked on organizing them yet. The concerns raised about a FAQ becoming too generalizing has made me consider whether it would really be doable to construct a helpful FAQ comparing MUDs in general to MUSHes in general. I will probably start by writing some articles specifically focusing on what MUD players might need to know about my own game, and then I'll see how they can be made more universal.

I think code differences probably should be handled by someone who actually knows more about the backend, whereas my own interest are more towards the social/cultural side.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

No doubt, but acting on a perception sometimes is creates a self-fulfilling effect.

And yet by escalating it, you're contributing to the disruption. ;)

Perhaps the category method would allow you to break down the differences easier. For example, differences in code capabilities (as opposed to syntax) could be addressed MUD category by MUD category. Hence a standard RPE (Role-Play Enforced MUD not necessarily having any code differences from a H&S, just an enforced policy of role-play) might have many more differences from a MUSH in regard to pose/emote capabilities than a RPI would.

Well there's the behind-the-scenes differences in code as well as the visible differences such as input syntax. Still, I can understand your hesitation. I consider myself a code'tard and typically try to avoid contributing to the code mechanics side of things if there are others with a greater capability present. To each their strengths, right? :)

Jason

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I see no reason to justify yourself Nymeria. You came in with some real discussion and were sideswiped. Some are above this type of behaviour, others are not.

As for MUSH/MUD differences. They are many, but the difficulty is in finding an expert in two relatively globally enjoyable games that are more generic. One MUSH and one MUD. And then exploring the differences that way. Otherwise you begin an argument over the differences between two MUSHes and two MUDs in the middle of the evaluation.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Surely the code definition is the easy part?

MUSH is a codebase derived from TinyMUD. Any mud derived from MUSH is a MUSH (as well as a TinyMUD). Likewise, any mud derived from MOO is a MOO, any mud derived from ROM is a ROM, any mud derived from SMAUG is a SMAUG, and so on.

Or is that not what you meant?

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Well, I guess you'd have that in there for those who want to know, but players would probably be more interested in how it affects what they can or can't do, with some also wanting to know a bit about the underlying mechanics. :)

For example, my understanding (which could be all wrong) is that players on non-MUSH codebases generally don't have many options for coding things unless they get promoted to that sort of access? Whereas on a MUSH, anyone can do things in softcode, though there are limits to what players without the Royal or Wizard flags can do. On the other hand, on a MUSH you frequently have game admin who don't know anything about modifying the actual server code.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Sure, but as different types of mud can immitate each other it's very difficult to categorise them purely by feature. I therefore think it might be helpful to start out the FAQ with a clear definition that can't really be disputed - if you state something like "MUSH refers to a group of codebases derived from TinyMUD", then afterwards you can describe the variants of MUSH (TinyMUSH, PernMUSH, PennMUSH) elaborate on what sort of features they typically offer (compared both to other members of the TinyMUD family and to other types of mud entirely), and discuss the sort of audiences they're usually aimed at.

From what I recall, it's the same with MOO (and although I'm speculating here, by extension I would presume the same is true of POO, CoolMUD and possibly even ColdMUD). There's no technical reason why an LPMud couldn't be set up the same way either, and although I'm not aware of any that are, I don't think it would be a good idea to base the definition of MUSH on the default status of a single flag.

Well the same is true of almost all muds (usually only a small number of dedicated admin work on the server code). In the LPMud family (which was also inspired by TinyMUD), the server is separate from the mudlib, and it's perfectly possible to radically customise your game without ever touching the server code.

Many of the more modern DikuMUDs also have their own scripting languages, which provide enough functionality to perform a fair amount of content customisation.

Some of the more modern codebases also offer embedded languages (for example NakedMUD), while others are written entirely in interpreted languages and can be modified on the fly.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Hello All,

I was really excited to see that someone was going to give a non-newbie Mudder (but clueless none-the-less) a place to learn about other RP options out there. So I log on and start looking for the FAQ's. Instead I was told that most discussions are blocked unless you register. So I did, taking about another five minutes of my lunch break. Then i finally get here only to find sniping about discourtesy and no real help about definitions and distinctions between MUD and MUSHes. I might be able to find it if I scroll down through all the harping back and forth in posts but frankly my lunch hour is half over and it no longer seems important enough to look up. I am sure that your conflict needs resolved to your satisfaction, however could you do it NOT in the section that is supposed to be giving out information. Because bluntly this was a monumental waste of my time and any other person's who came looking for some answers and insight.


I feel the need to apologize to any other person searching for information on this topic that has to read MY sniping. But maybe it will save you time and hassle and you can look somewhere else for actual FAQ's.


Veela

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I agree 101% with this, and I deeply apologize for the few posts of mine that would have fallen under the 'sniping' category. I truly do wish that the MODs would be more stringent with out-of-topic posts, and perhaps remove the entire middle chunk from this thread (minus Kavir's insightful ones about code scattered here and there, though).

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Topic drift is often how a lot of useful and informative discussion takes place. While personal insults certainly have no place in debate I'd caution against a laissez faire attitude to post deletion as it can be just as stifling to discussion as the bickering which some of you find so offensive.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Plenty of forums have no qualms deleting very evidently off-topic posts, and are none the worse for it.

You seem to imply that 'some of us' cannot stand bickering, as if it's a bad thing to dislike - why did you message me to request that I remove a certain post of mine, then? (Which I willingly did, as I too admit that it is wrong)

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

My implication was only that one person's bickering may be another's robust debate. In this thread for example there have been some interesting points about how different people view role-playing despite the confrontational manner of some of the posts. I know I've gained some insights that I didn't have before, and that's surely the point of a discussion forum.

I didn't message you to remove the post, simply the part where you referred to another poster as "an arrogant prick" (or words to that effect, I forget the exact post now). It's certainly not my place to censor you and I was simply making a request that you disagree with someone without trading insults.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

If the poster had actually checked the heading of this thread, they would have discovered it is -not- a FAQ file. It is a discussion, in a discussion forum, in a category for mud admins and developers, and that the topic is asking specifically to discuss what the differences are. Not to list the differences, but rather, to discuss them, in an attempt to create such a list, on behalf of one MUSH owner's website.

It sounds more to me like someone was sent here intentionally to stir the pot and accuse the people discussing this topic of sniping. Which - in forum terms, is called - trolling.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

What the hell are you talking about? You register and your very first post is bashing people who are in a heated debate over MUSH and MUD for posting our thoughts and opinions?

It's a forum. This thread isn't meant to be compiled as one great source of information or a "FAQ" because that's why it's a thread being discussed instead of a topic that is locked and stickied.

There is a difference between a thread for discussion and a thread posted with no responses that is a community-wide accepted definition or FAQ.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I didn't notice Jazuela post before me. Pretty much said what I was saying in a more refined manner. Either way.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

*snort*

I do not think for one second someone who clearly is counting the lost mins of their lunch break would take the time to pen such a lengthy post on a forum they are new too.. it makes zero sense. And as to agreeing with it 101% and appologising.. please... if you are so grossly unhappy here.. why carry on posting.

So come on.. which of you complainers has joined under another name to make some kind of stupid point... and in SUCH a foul colour!

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Thankfully the MODs here actually know how to moderate a forum and don't censor everything and create a community of yes men/women. Variety in opinion is what makes TMS a place to discuss anything about MUDs.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

While it was very harsh to look at, I think Misao has a valid concern about keeping things civil here in order to encourage more members. She certainly didn't make that post.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

There's a fine line between letting the community have open discussion and removing posts that deteriorate into a "flame war".

We won't always be on the right side of it. If we have the balance right, at any point in time probably about 50% of the forum agrees that we (a) moderate too much (b) don't moderate enough :)

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I admit, I had to restrain myself from commenting on the colour. ;)

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I think it should depend on the thread and forum in question. Certain topics are going to bring more heated debate than others. If somebody is blatantly posting harmful things in harmless categories such as the advertisement areas, then moderating is probably necessary.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

You clearly need to learn to read. When did I mention I was 'grossly unhappy' here?

I simply agreed that many posts here were evidently quite off-topic and apologized for my share in them. If that somehow offends you, I think you need some serious self-examination. Either that, or I must have somehow stepped on your or your other handle's toes sometime in the past.

Lasher, I agree with you as well - it's impossible to please everyone, and everyone has different opinions on how much censorship should be performed.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

He wasn't referring to you, he was referring to Veela. Far as I can tell. You're definitely one of the more sensitive posters though.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Some quick points:

1. This is a discussion forum, not an FAQ. Did you not notice that the link you clicked to get here was in the section entitled "Recent Forum Discussions"?

2. It is poor netiquette to post without first reading the thread, because the chances are your post will be irrelevant or redundant, and thus waste the time of other readers. If you'd taken the time to read the guidelines at the top of this forum then you'd have known that - as well as what to expect from this thread.

3. You don't need to sign up to read the discussions. In fact, the recommendation to sign up would have appeared on the same page as the discussion itself, so if you saw that notice then you were already viewing this thread. The first line of the first post makes it clear that this is a discussion and not an FAQ.

4. People disagree on a wide range of subjects, and sometimes they aren't very nice to each other. Welcome to the internet. Thick skin isn't optional.

5. That colour is disgusting. If you post again, I would hope you'd show a little more consideration (and better manners) in general, but that colour really has to go.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

you have a gift for understatement......

Ok.. I think the magenta complainer may have left the building,... back on topic please :)

Wasnt a Veela the creature the bulgarians used as mascots in the Quidditch World Final (Harry Potter)... was all nice and sweet, but when they were unhappy they screeched like harpies? The world is full of wonderful coincidences

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Likely they meant the fact that you have to sign up to post and somewhere in between selecting the worst color text they possibly could and fuming that they can't just criticize anonymously they forgot that and wrote that they had to sign up to read.

The question is, will they read these responses or are they at their local McDonalds complaining, "Where is the cereal? You call this a grocery store?!?"

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Well Hello Again,

I was not going to come back here as I did not find it as helpful as I had liked. I however had minimized the window and when I got on the computer later; I started looking at other links listed on the site and found some very useful. I had intended to come back into this forum and state just that. That your site had given me information that was both useful and pertanent to my search.

However instead I find an amazing amount of slams sent in my direction. With accusations that I am not really a new member or was only making a post to "stir the pot". Well I would like to answer some of these statements.

But first as to the color I use. This is my signature color for my signature bard Veela. A little information about me. I am a female mudder who has been RPing for around 10 years and was introduced to mudding by my husband. Yes there are real life female mudders and we conduct our characters a little different as should be expected. It has been my past experience that people embrace differences in the mudding world as it adds flavor to the tapestry that is their realms. Apparently web sites talking about mudding are less tolerant of an individual's expressive style.

As to the slam about my character name and attributes thank you for noticing. I chose the name for exactly that purpose as the Veela in the book entice the men around them by their beauty and completely distract them from their evil temperment. As I play a surface bardie that has a secret afiliation to a passle of orcs, drows, duergers and goblins the irony tickled me as well.

As to the comments on needing to register, that was EXACTLY the impression I had. I clicked this link and started to read the posting when a box came up and said that to have full access to member posting areas that I would need to register. So I did. Pardon me for thinking there was a reason for the pop up message.

As to the part about etiquette. I have learned something today. I do not participate in forum discussions and did not know how they even worked and wasn't sure even how to post a comment. Scoff if you must, but that is a truthful statement none the less. As I originally came on to say, once I came back and scrolled down there was some valid information that gave me additional insight as to the world of the admin wizards located just beyond the curtain. So if I had offended by posted before reading I am sorry and will keep that in mind should I enter into anymore forum discussions.

However the orignal point of my post is very valid. I did not think that it would be a cut and dried list of FAQ's but that it would be a give and take on what their content should be. And in that give and take there would be solid information about MUD and MUSH content, similarities and differences. I still maintain that if this is the content heading of your topic of discussion that the majority of posts should fall under that heading. And as I stated, that a NEW thread could have been started to address the other concerns. I must also admit that I found my original assumption to be true. There is some very solid information about these differences in the posts here, but again you had to wade through a large amount of bickering to get to the meat of it.


If your desire is to increase the number of new members to your site then you might try to be a little more welcoming to those that do show up and actually post something. Your next new visiter scanning posts is going to see how you treated this one and an impression is going to be made. You need to ask yourself is this the impression that you want them to get.

Sincerely,
Veela

Just in case there is still some doubt as to my validity as a seperate entity from others you can email me at .

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Veela

Most folks who are new come onto this forum, say hello.. join in a few threads in a low key manner to get a grasp of who is who, and then start to exert their own style..

You came onto a forum, and started complaining about it, and still in a horrific colour which is not pleasant to read.. which considering how much you seem to be able to write is quite painful.

Regardless, welcome to the forum, a forum for mudders.. not their characters, hence no need to use any colour other than white.

You certainly seem to have a lot to say, and have an attitude which should go nicely in TMS as responding to the slightest.. slightly poking.. retort.. with waves of defensive / offensive text is the norm here :-)

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Sir,

I am a bardie, with an affinity for words and the guts to use them. I stand by my original post and try at all times to be fair. The only intention I had in returning was to modify the original, in your face tone, of the 1st post. It was not until I read all the responses that I chose to get so verbose. A quirk in my personality or a genetic predetermination from generations of celebrated artists in my family tree, plays out in my use of color. The intentionnal use of color was not to be offensive rather instead to be expressive. Now that it has been brought to my attention that it is difficult to read I have made modifications.

Veela
Sarcasm not fully utilized at this point.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

There is one rule about forum posters that I have found to be true in 100% of cases:

Any poster who feels their posts need to be in a special color is incredibly self centered and self important.

It is one thing to change one's own color settings. It is another to force a color setting on other people. That is just wrong on many levels.

Veela: If your bard has a signature color, then go into your browser settings and change the default font color to mangenta. But forcing magenta on other people, who expect and want the forum to have a consistent look (for readability) is just selfish in the extreme.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Agreeing with Threshold. :eek:

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

OK.. I may be gone for some time... Delerak just agreed with Threshold which must mean I am seeing things and have finally gone insane.. as we ALL know Delerak never agrees with Threshold..

I almost think I saw Proff115151541 (whatever) and Newworlds actually turning a flame war into a civil conversation again... and that is really my imagination

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

It's the end of the world! Quick! We must do something to stop it! Newworlds, you...you...um...you eat your soup with a fork! Now, Threshold and Delerak, say something about each other. We must restore order to the universe! :)

Seriously though, I too agree with Threshold's observation. I also find it funny that someone claiming to be a wordsmith would call themselves the larva of an insect.

"Bardie" is an Australian Aboriginal word for edible grubs. A "bard" is not the same thing. Shouldn't someone with "an affinity for words" know this? I won't go into the various punctuation and spelling errors littered throughout the post though.

There's no evidence of color preference being genetic so it has to be a "quirk" in your personality. However, I have to ask a couple of questions. If your role-played character is a bard, assuming that you don't role-play a grub, why should anything on the forum matter to them since this is a web forum in the real world, not in a game? Are you suggesting you have trouble separating your MUD character from reality? If so, that's not a quirk; it's a much more serious problem.

Jason

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

What Veela saw was one of two things:

1. Upon checking on the forum without being registered/logged in, a message letting you know that your *posting* access is limited until you are registered and logged in, with an invite hyperlink to the registration page. You still have full reading access.

2. Upon attempting to reply to a post, when not registered/logged in, a notice telling you that you need to be registered/logged in to reply.

There is no message saying that most access is blocked. Only that certain membership privileges are specifically for registered, logged-in members. Such as PMs, and *participating* in the forums (as opposed to simply reading them).

I don't ever log in when I come to TMS to check the forum. I just go to the main TMS page, and look on the "most recently posted" list. If there's a thread of interest I'll click it and read it. I won't log in until I decide to reply to something, and I'm logged out when I leave the site. So I see both of those "please log in" messages. Neither of them block me from reading anything at all.

Also, I believe Veela is actually claiming to be a bard. A real life honest to goodness bonafide bard. If this is the case, I beg leave to request that she give my fondest regards to Bill.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Nice! I didn't even know I could post in another color. This is my favorite color, and I thrust it upon you all.

Anyway, to get back to the topic (though I'm seriously late), we have about 10 players on Threshold that actually move back and forth between Threshold and a Kushiel MUSH rather frequently. They'll usually play one or the other depending on what intertests them most at the moment. All of them started on Threshold first and decided to play the Kushiel based MUSH because of our interests in those books. Though many of the players on the MUSH welcomed them with open arms, they did meet with a lot of disdain from a few players because they came from a MUD. In a MUD, especially an RP-enforced one where politics matter nearly as much as levels, you learn to plan your character's actions in a lot of details because you know there are some "real" consequences to slipping up. (I put real in quotes because losing a level doesn't really give you real life consequences, but it does give your character in-game consequences.) Thus, the players were more than ready to deal with the challenges of a MUSH. Most of the challenge came in simply learning the particular "culture" of the MUSH they chose. This included things like setting up scenes, how to pose, what was an appropriate length for posing, and learning how to wait some time before posing.

On Threshold, everything happens about 10 times faster than it does on a MUSH, even with the people who spend a lot of time writing elaborate poses (or emotes as we call them). You can easily wait 15 minutes between poses on a MUSH while on Threshold, you'd wait at most 3 minutes. Some people don't even wait that long and will cram in as much as they can before their opponent can get anything in edge-wise. That statement alone shows one of the biggest differences between the "play" of many MUDs and MUSHes. In a MUSH, you are playing cooperatively even when you're in opposition. You are agreeing to play the opposition to see what comes out of the story you're both telling. In a MUD, because of its coded elements, you can have a ton of opposition with very little RP, even if the rules demand that you have RP. Both of these are roleplaying, and it's a mistake to believe that people on MUSHes work out every word to every scene and how it's going to play out. They simply agree to come together to play a specific scene. The outcome is not necessarily determined nor is it always scripted.

On Threshold, we've encouraged people to get together to plan large events and even to coordinate with the administration on these events. All players know that they don't get to tell us what the outcome is going to be. They simply tell us their planned event, how they think it is going to turn out, what they hope will happen, and their RP and logic behind it. Sometimes things turn out pretty well, and other times, a tower lands on someone's head. I don't think that getting together to agree to play out a scene on a MUSH is that different.

In the end, the RP on a MUSH and the RP on an RP-enforced MUD is not all that different once it gets going. RP is a tool in which different people get together to tell a story in tandum. How it is accomplished differs greatly and the settings are vastly different. In the end, what players are learning are simply different cultures of the game. (I sit around mocking people who RP on WoW, but in the end, what they're doing is not THAT different than wanting to RP at a table top game, a LARP, a MUD or a MUSH. I should probably shut my piehole.) So, your FAQ needs to deal with basic commands and the basic culture of MUSHes vs. a MUD.

Not sure that really helps. I'm feeling sort of rambly.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I think this observation sounds like a pretty good generalization, with the caveat that there are certainly more competitive MUSHes out there, and probably less competitive MUDs.

Yes, I am thinking now the command side can be pretty basic (and in-game, I am considering what sort of things can be given aliases to make them easier to find), but that the culture is where it could help with some longer write-ups. Though a lot is game specific, so a general FAQ could be shorter.

Definitely helpful, thank you. :)

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Right, so this had nothing to do with my post? Wow, you arrived at the exact same number I typed -- the world is full of wonderful coincidences indeed.

Still, if you weren't referring to me, all's good then. :)

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

pffft cant remember to be honest.. magenta has a wierd affect on me....

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

I think the biggest challenge for a mudder on a mush is how to deal with all the wankers, and mushers on a mud in turn have to deal with all the morons.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

As horrific as I must admit magenta is, there was none in my quote of you. Only bad spelling. :/

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Since MUD commands are different across games, it might be more confusing to provide resources specifically comparing MUDs to MUSHs. But if you explain your game and its environment well enough in general that will be a great boon to any new player!

I believe the key to enabling any new player to get acclimated to your game (mudder or not) is to structure the game and game website in such a way that new players have quick and intuitive access to whatever help mechanisms you have in place. Their first moment in creation or on the game should point to how they can obtain help on the basic and essential commands they will need to get started. You might need to remind new players in many different spots how to access the help files or web pages you have created to aid them. In my experience, Veteran gamers tend to get easily frustrated with a game if the information they need to play isn't easily accessible.

Looking at the Blood of Dragons website you seem to have a lot of help files and helpful articles there. That is great! I'd find that very useful if I was trying out your game.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Excellent post Milawe.
I thought your statement "In a MUSH, you are playing cooperatively even when you're in opposition. You are agreeing to play the opposition to see what comes out of the story you're both telling. In a MUD, because of its coded elements, you can have a ton of opposition with very little RP, even if the rules demand that you have RP." was right on target.
All in all a excellent post.

Obsevations of mine - the MUD part from a long time ago and from reading various posts, I could be wrong:)
In a MUD one can play for hours without having to interact with another player character.
In a MUSH solo playing is really not feasible.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Thanks, Liosliath. I had my eyes opened when some of our hardcore RPers started playing heavily on a MUX. Thankfully, these players still stayed on our games and let me know what drew them to MUXes and MUSHes even with their 10-year mudding histories. It's something I've never really tried myself except for doing historical research to aid a friend's RP.

Ultimately, it often seems that it's the content that draws them. Most MUSHes that are very successful seem to be centered around the works of authors where the world is fully detailed and known by almost all the players before they even enter the game. I think that's what allows for cooperative play so well. Almost everyone is starting off on the same footing knowledge-wise because everyone has the same access to the lore. The discovery comes in the individual characters that are created rather than exploration of the game world. Setting the scenes become really important to get everyone on the same page, and thus, cooperative play (even in opposition) becomes a necessity.

With MUDs finding things out about the world is usually a vital part of the game regardless of whether or not there is RP involved. You're discovering where each piece of gear drops, which monsters are hardest to fight, what piece of gear sells the best in the current market, what recipes craft which items, how many seconds you have to wait between this ability and that ability, and the list is endless. So, yes, you could essentially play for hours with the game world itself without ever talking to another player, and part of the thrill of playing is learning about the game and the world itself. Knowledge is power, and you've got an advantage over other players if you know something about the world that they have yet to discover.

In a MUSH, I think the discovery comes when you're playing out a scene to see how specific characters would possibly evolve in a very established world that is usually loved before a player ever gets online. You get a lot of purists who want to uphold the integrity of the world lore, and everyone operates with the same end goal really. Sometimes, you do get the super twinks on a MUSH but not as often as you do on a MUD because in a MUSH, players are 95% of the content of the game. (Obviously, I'm generalizing a bit because there ARE successful MUSHes that are not based on the works of Tolkien, Lucas or some DnD world. They're just not as common as the successul MUSHes that ARE based on someone else's writing.) Alienate enough players, and you really don't have a game to play. Thus, pre-planning a time and scene makes a lot of sense to me.

Anyway, rambling again. I think for a certain set of players, moving between MUDs and MUSHes can be pretty natural and painless.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

In the hope of getting this conversation back on track, here's a little information on the three main MUD families (TinyMUD, LPMud and DikuMUD) and how they're interconnected:Thus you can see the relationship between MUD and MUSH as follows, where each box represents a new codebase and the lines represent inspiration:

As I touched on earlier in the thread, I would personally be interested to see comparisons such as:After that the comparisons could be extended to other codebases, including some of the many MUDs that fall outside of the codebases listed in the above diagram. For example the only other MUD I've encountered with a movement system similar to mine is a MUX, while death in my MUD is similar to the result of the TinyMUD 'kill' command (banishment back to your home) - but my command syntax is more like DikuMUD, with argument parsing a little like LPMud.

I think it'd be really interesting to compare different custom MUDs with each other as well, as no game is designed in a vacuum, and you can often see striking similarities between independantly developed MUDs. It'd also be worth checking out the Morder codebase, which was primarily inspired by Scepter of Goth (developed around the same time as - but independently from - the original MUD).

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Mud Dungeneer,

I agree, presenting information in an easily accessible way is crucial. What I've struggled with, and continue to struggle with, is selection of information. When you have an information-heavy game, what do you give players first? Ideally, I guess you structure everything from low to high detail. So that when someone starts out, they can get what they need in an overview, and then they can look a little deeper and get the same information in a more comprehensive format.

I am not sure I've quite succeeded with that myself, I think a lot of the time people are confronted with too much information too soon, but it is always a work in progress.

Milawe,

Some interesting points to consider, definitely. Especially given your experience of players that play both MUSHes and MUDs.

KaVir,

Thank you, that's a very nice break down. Though in itself, I guess it doesn't really say much about what you can expect from the different codebases, except possibly that the more closely related are more likely to have things in common than those further apart. But as a basis for further analysis, its very helpful as a reference.

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Don't forget NiMUD!

Re: From MUDs to MUSHes: FAQs, etc for the players
 

Locke, MOO doesn't belong in the TinyMUD box, as it's not derived from the same code.