You've been posting here for 8 days. Do you really think that gives you a valid perspective of how the style of posting has changed here over the last few years?

Well yes, that's precisely what happens when someone posts flamebait.

Well he's having a pretty good attempt.

Please reread my post. This erroneous statement was specifically addressed already.

I'm not sure how you could trounce someone if you can't even be bothered to compose a reply relevant to what it is you're trouncing.

Oh yeah, attacking everyone elses ideas because they're different than yours certainly doesn't sound like flame-bait to me!

I have been reading this board now and then during 3-4 years before I registered. Of course even then though it is hard to know how someone post because as an outsider you don't have the same feelings as when you interact.

As an outsider I might be able to see the threads more objective though. I agree that the_logos post threads that provoces flames easily. Still I hope the community does concentrate on what is important because there's more people like the_logos who have "odd views".

Does flaming the_logos and others in this thread make the situation any better? I seriously doubt it. The question though is why his thread wasn't closed if it's an obvious flame bait.

No it isn't. No single person can "ruin" a forum. You give this mythical "person" way too much power. Furthermore, there are game developer blogs and lists like MUD-DEV where "this person" participates that have NOT devolved into the utter crap that is the TMS (or TMC for that matter) forum. If it is truly "this person" who is to blame, the effect would be universal.

No, it is not a single person that ruined these forums but the general population/peanut gallery. The forums here blow chunks because they are dominated by entire groups of people who can't actually DO anything, so they just **** and moan and attack people who HAVE accomplished things. Thus, people who actually do have valuable input regret participating in any substantive discussion.

There you go again. Agreement = lap dog. That is a sad, tired, pathetic argument that any thinking person knows is fallacious.

Here's a hint: there are no other discussions on this forum other than the flame wars that are even marginally interesting. That is what this forum has devolved to. The rare attempts at a substantive thread are quickly ruined by clueless trolls and even these threads are sporadic. Brody is about the only person with any actual game creating talent who seriously tries to generate discussion, but the poor guy can't do it alone.

Honestly, why would I completely waste my time and effort trying to discuss a serious game design issue here, on these forums filled with know-nothing trolls, when I could have the exact same discussion on MUD-DEV or a number of excellent blogs (that I won't list for fear of the rabble here going there and ruining them too)? Those other forums have experienced game developers and intelligent, thoughtful people to discuss issues of game design with. Their moderators delete and prevent flame wars. Tell me why I, or any successfull game creator, would choose THIS forum to have a game related discussion instead of those?


I'd be insulted by this if I didn't know it was just another example of you furthering your personal agenda and vendetta.

If you think succcessful mud developers all seem to think the same way about a certain set of issues, perhaps THAT should be a clue for you.

Perhaps it has nothing to do with your crazy conspiracy theory and maybe the things those successful mud developers agree upon are actually the RIGHT positions.

It is so much easier to just yell "LAP DOG!" than to actually examine your own positions and consider that you might be off base.

But please, don't let me interrupt you from swinging at windmills.

As Tyche pointed out on TMC "BTW the problem child on TMS was also a problem child on mud-dev continually dropping chunks of bait in otherwise normal posts and then claiming innocence. A moderator who isn't afraid to delete or ask a person otherwise rewrite their otherwise high signal post to remove the unecessary and quite intentional 'bombs' in their post takes a lot of finesse and class. It takes even more guts to do it even when you agree with the person posting it."

Perhaps if TMS took the same stance towards moderation that MUD-DEV does it wouldn't be such a problem. However that's a huge amount of work, and decision for Synozeer to make.

It sounds like you're quoting the_logos. The definition of "accomplishment" is something that varies from person to person, as well you should be aware. How many codebases have you released? How many hundreds of muds are based on your work?

No - blind agreement with every single point the individual makes, and only ever posting to defend your "master"...that is what makes you sound like a lapdog.

And this, I believe, is the root of the problem. You and those like you have no interest or intent in posting anything worthwhile to these forums, so you use it as a dumping ground for provoking flame wars and spamming adverts. This is the attitude that ruins the forums and prevents any sort of worthwhile content from being posted.

I don't know, you're the one that makes your decisions. Why don't YOU tell us why you chose this forum over MUD-DEV. It's not like anyone forces you to stay here. If you want to go there, then go.

Aha. Since YOU consider it blind agreement, it is. How did you come to be so incredibly arrogant and full of yourself?

Also, are you sure about that "every single point" part? For example, can you quote my post where I agreed that it was a good idea for Medievia to be on the list? <span style='color:red'>Oops, you can't. So much for your weak attempt at an argument.</span>

Your attempt at justifying your repugnant behavior once again falls flat. The simple fact is that if anyone agrees with the people you despise, you label them lap dogs.

Do you have any idea how badly it weakens every point you try to make as well as your general credibility when instead of staying on topic you have to just label people lap dogs? That really is a ridiculous and sad way to try and strengthen your points: <span style='color:red'>"LAP DOG!!!!!!!! LAP DOG!!!!!!!!!!! $*@*#@^#(wiping drool from face) YOU ARE A LAP DOG I SAY!"</span>

Really..... step back and look at yourself.

You just cannot stand the fact that not everyone agrees with you. Get over it KaVir. Maybe if you took better positions on issues you'd have more of these "successful mud administrators" agreeing with you and then you wouldn't have to lament and cry about the fact that they have a different opinion than yours.

Your timeline is all mixed up and you have cause and effect backwards. I don't start or create anything here, be it positive or negative. I tried hard to create interesting discussions long ago, but the lack of moderation and over abundance of trolls spoiled that. Now I occasionally comment on existing threads or arguments- that's it.

The rabble of childish trolls who don't know anything about making games and clearly don't even care to actually learn are the ones who make this an unpleasant and worthless place to have a substantive discussion.

There is no moderation, so the discussions suffer. Period. Saying it is "too much work" to moderate the forum is an easy excuse, but it doesn't change reality. The majority of those who would object to heavy moderation are the trolls who have enjoyed having their way with the place.

Until there is HEAVY moderation (heavy moderation includes deleting posts of nimrods whose argument consists of "YOU'RE A LAPDOG!") these forums will be a dumping ground. Not because of me or any other single "person", but because the HORDES of lifeless, know-nothing trolls pollute the forums constantly and overwhelm any attempt at a reasonable discussion of any issue.

the_logos could have used the money to post his own ads. It looks like he's being nice here and offering to help other muds instead. The thing is, he purposely drew attention to Mercthievia and basicly said, "I'm sticking it to those protesting Mercthievia by doing this." If he actually wanted to give away free ads, he could have left that part out entirely, but it seems that even when he does something nice(if that is his true intention, which it may be), he has to be an ass about it and try to start a flamewar.

Having a personality and an opinion is not the same as being arrogant.

Your silence was sufficiently compelling, particularly considering your aggressive stance towards Medievia in the past. It must have been an uncomfortable pull of loyalties, watching the_logos defending them like that.

There are plenty of people who I have disagreements with, but most of them at least have their own agendas and viewpoints.

I think I should point out that you're the one who brought up "lap dogs". And I really find your above comment rather ironic, coming from the person who calls everyone 'jealous' if they say anything negative towards IRE.

Sure. Now do the same.

Of course I can - I've had disagreements with many posters, sometimes involving flamewars, yet I'm still on good terms with them.

You are a sad, sad man.

So even when I don't agree with Matt, it doesn't count. Only the times I agree with him count. It must be convenient for you to ignore absolutely everything that contradicts your twisted view of reality.

You could at least admit you were wrong when you accused me of agreeeing with "every single point" Matt makes. But you won't because it doesn't further your irrational vendetta.

KaVir, I hope you and your ilk here enjoy riding the sinking ship right to the bottom of the ocean.

Only the times you post count.  Show me one single post you've made here where you've disagreed with him.   Or come to think of it, any post in the last few months (other than that 'gay rights' one) where you've not posted to defend him or his muds.

Here's a thought KaVir: Naming your codebase God Wars doesn't make you God. You have no right to make irrational demands upon me or tell me what I must do. Your arrogance seems to know no bounds.

If you want to accuse me of something, *YOU* prove it. Don't make arrogant demands that I disprove it. Why don't you search back to when I disagreed with the IRE practice of logging voter IPs and rewarding people who actually voted. It was quite a controversial issue, if you recall.

Now you change your argument and say if I'm not actively disagreeing with Matt, it doesn't count. Too bad KaVir. You don't run the universe. You don't get to tell me how I choose to disagree with someone.

Furthermore, let us not forget: You said I agree with "every single point" (exact and direct quote) Matt makes. I provided a very recent example to the contrary. Like a child throwing a tantrum, that isn't good enough for you.

KaVir, you are just a joke now. A sad shadow of a once interesting and erudite contributor to the mudding community. You have been consumed by your hatred and can do nothing more than label everyone who disagrees with you a lapdog.

I pity you.

Quoted for Truth, and Great Justice!

-H

Threshold wrote:
Hmm...I'm a bit curious about this actually, about how Achaea was rewarding players for voting...because they are still doing it, to some extent. There's a guild ranking system called 'TopGuilds' and one of the criteria on which guilds are scored is the 'Vote Score', based on the number of votes contributed by members of that guild the previous day. The ranking doesn't bring any tangible benefits, though, but I'm still curious if this is allowed.

Oh yes, because tracking who votes is so rewarding and all.

-H

If it's ok for someone to try to intentionally hurt our fine Topmudsites administrator, Synozeer, over Medievia, it's certainly ok for me to ensure he is -not- hurt over Medievia, and to help out other MUDs in the meantime.

Hahah.

So he's a lapdog if he speaks up, and he's a lap dog if he doesn't speak up? The only way he's not a lap dog is if he agrees with you, right?

--matt

No, then he'd be KaVir's lapdog!

No no, it's only when you agree with someone Kavir doesn't like that you're a lapdog. If you agree with him, then you're thinking for yourself, obviously.

I really do not understand why this is such a controversy. Is it a bad thing that noncommercial muds get a chance to advertise themselves? Or is it bad where the money is coming from? Or what?
Seems to me that this would be a good thing...an opportunity for more muds to get the news out about themselves. *shrug*

The problem being the arrogance of the way that it was done. That is the problem here, at least it is in my opinion.

And there's the division between the as Threshold is putting it, the successful muds (I imagine what he means is the Commercial Muds), and their players, versus, most people minus a couple who just don't give a ####. The mud's which take payment, seem to have ego's about them, thinking that because they are making money, that the hobbyist have no right to get ****ed off when one of them tries to make a living off of their hard work.

It's not their problem that someone that counts themselves in the company of "successful muds" stole the work of hobbyist. No. It's our problem for being jealous that we didn't do it first.

And then there are the people who say, why spend time complaining when you could write something better. Well, I'll tell you what, there are innovative games out there. They may not be able to advertise, and they may not be on the top ten, heck they may not even have any players, but they are as innovative and as fun as anything else.

Heck, I remember a time when you had to crawl through gopher to find a mud, you know the time before the WWW. Before ad banners? Oh yah those were some good times.

Still, it seems that people are complaining about a good deed by saying that the motivation isn't pure. I'm not sure the motivation matters as long as the end result is positive. I think that if there are innovative noncommercial muds out there, then this is an excellent means of getting the word about about them.
Saying someone is arrogant because they make an offer, because they can make the offer, seems a little self defeating.

If someone came up to you and said, "Yah, I make enough cash to buy you a Lexus, want one?" -- isn't arrogant? I think it is. Ted Turner could have given A Billion dollars to a a 3 world country, to help better them, but instead donates it to the UN. Giving it to a country would be arrogant. Giving it to the UN is humble.

How cute. If the only thing you care about is money, it doesn't mean every other person only cares about money. You have to realize most MUD'ers/MUD admins/coders/whatever never did anything with MUDs for money, because it is ... I don't really know how to explain this, especially if you don't seem to understand the whole subject at all. Besides I'm not much of an admin or whatever myself.
For me though, the whole situation can be compared to the "music industry".

The "right" way - at least how I perceive it - is play for the sake of playing, for the sake of creating, bringing something to your listeners, sending some message of your own, some thoughts of yours, something that comes from your very heart - even if it doesn't go along with what the listener WANTS to hear or whatever; being sincere and being open about what and how you feel and think is the priority.
Such musicians rarely get much credit, aside from a few examples, and more often than not have full time jobs and their music is rarely even enough to pay for whatever gear and whatnot.

And then there are "musicians" - I put that in quotes for a reason - who play for money. They don't care much about the "message", they don't care much about being creative or about being honest - they only care about doing something that would sell well enough to pay their bills. You could say, if people listen to their music it has to be good. That's true to certain extent. But it's called "selling out" for a reason.

You can't be good for many, and the best for one at the same time.

And there's a reason why the "sell outs" are disliked; aside from going away from, I don't know, traditions of their craft, they also take away people from the works of others, those who perhaps put less time (since they have to work to pay for food...), but much, much more heart and much more real effort into their work.
For someone who was raised on boy bands and pop rock, it may be difficult to actually hear and understand more serious, much more beautiful - but also always so much more complicated - music of bands that choose to remain free from commercialism.

It is not possible to disprove a negative.  Might as well ask me to prove that unicorns don't exist.

He's a lapdog when the only time he speaks up is to defend you.

And I see you're well on your way to recruiting another - looks like the bad publicity from supporting Mercthievia didn't all go to waste, after all.

I just wanna say one thing...

Juganothion: Posted on May 17 2005,00:48
No, they are talking about the ‘Elite’  forum that the_logos tried to start. I forgot the name of it, as did most others, but it was reserved exclusively (posting _and_ viewing) for commercial Mud Administrators with a specified minimum number of paying customers.  It died from lack of oxygen and new ideas, not surprisingly.

I think you are underestimating the impact about what is happening in these boards.

There is a genuine anger, not to say wrath, among the long time posters, both about the code thieves Medievia being allowed back on the list and about the way the list Administrator is tolerating the obnoxious, arrogant, personally insulting and in other ways flame-generating posts of one member, the_logos, who seems to have bought his way into power here. There is also a widespread anger and frustration over how the boards have generated from what they once were.

Many of the long time members no longer see this site as a community that they proudly want to be a part of, like it used to be in the old days. To them it has become a cesspool, only fit to spit in. Molly O’Hara is not the only one of the long-time posters being disgusted enough to leave, she was just the first to express her feelings publicly. Many others have followed, some of them openly stating their position, others just fading out silently.

And in case you wonder why so many of the once interesting contributors to the discussions here no longer are posting anything but flames, it is because they all left to join another discussion list. One where intentionally spammed advertisements, flame-bait and fluff are not tolerated, although it is in all other ways a free forum for sharing valid thoughts, information and ideas.

That is the reason why these boards no longer contain much but advertisements, spam, flames and fluff, although a few brave souls still seem to be  trying to generate some interesting threads. It’s sad to see most of those drown in the cess pool. Meanwhile most of the other old posters have moved on.

I'm a little confused here, is this to say these forums are ONLY for game creators? I thought players were also welcome here, if not, then I'm in the wrong place!

Surely players are a vital part of any game? Quite often players are responsible for a lot of the game development, even if they don't physically implement the changes leading to development of a game.

Funny thing about creating a game, don't you normally need someone to PLAY the game, otherwise what is the point?

Sorry to stray off the original topic, but this thread is so far off topic already, I don't think it really matters.

Ah, good old 3rd-grade "you're just jealous" arguments. What would we do without your insight?

These forums are not only for game creators, but that is the high volume of people on the boards. I would suppose that most people who aren't developing games, are not going to gain anything out of reading most of these boards.

Nothing against the people who aren't developing games, but it's just the way things are. Other then design issues, player issues, coding problems, administration problems, there isn't a whole lot of things for the MUD world to discuss that isn't overly specific to a certain mud. Of course, we've hit on one in the last couple of days.

I don't mean to interupt the flaming, but is IRE still looking for MUD descriptions for the ad space?

Look for some Jergins?

Gesundheit.

Gee. Like to lie much?

It was restricted to successful mud staff, in an effort to cut down on noise. The criteria for being successful was a daily peak of 50 concurrent players.

Oh, lament the cry of the martyr.

There is such a prevailing animosity against commercial muds here which has caused the degradation of the community. Almost any time Matt posts he gets jumped on by the same people who have an opposing opinion, and who get particularly insulting and nasty about expressing it.

IMO, I think that Matt does have power on TMS because of the fact that he sends a significant portion of the traffic here every day, and that he is one of the higher spending advertisers. Some people seem to have an attitude that MUDs were born free, and are meant to be free, but they're not. The very first mud was a commercial entity, and they remained commercial for some time. To this day, the most popular muds are commercial, with Simutronics, IRE boasting massive playerbases across their games. Why? Because most people prefer to play in an environment with lots of content and quality, and its hard to compete with a full time commercial developer as a hobbyist.

I really don't think its Matt that brings these forums down. I think its the seething, mindless hostility that so many posters have for him. I've been here for a few years now(I lurked for a bit), and my honest view is that if you want the forums to start to improve.. improvement begins at home.

And thats the only contribution most of them make, these days.

One would think that a forum with an announcements & mud promotions forum would be more receptive to announcements and mud promotions.

I can certainly understand that. But ultimately, I don't think the blame for the cesspool lies entirely at Matt's feet.

-H

Also, just as a point to make.

No doubt someone will call me a lapdog for my above post. Yes, I've been playing IRE games for about 7 years. Yes, I'm the only mortal moderator for the boards of one of IRE's games, Imperian. Yes, I've licensed Rapture to develop a rapture mud for Persistent Realms.

However, I have played many of the muds of the regular posters here. Godwars2 is a great piece of work and I'm there pretty regularly, even though its in beta, and I speak to KaVir on there and he's a good bloke. Get him on here thought and he just turns nasty.

The same is true for many of the other senior members of the community.

Honestly, if everyone got off their highhorses about commercial vs free muds then I expect a lot of these problems would disappear.

-H

[/quote]
Erm...isn't that exactly what Sinuhe just said?

Not true at all - take a look at the warm welcome Traithe received when he announced his new commercial venture, for example. Or try pointing out any flames towards major commercial muds such as Gemstone or DragonRealms. The animosity is towards specific individuals because of their actions here - like all posters, those who run commercial muds are treated based on the way they act and portray themselves.

There's a dinosaur mud? Cool.

Does gateway count for free advertising? I'm sure I could find someone to send you a reply, lol. mind you it looks like you have your hands full already.

bassy

1) I'm more than confident that if a free MUD operator came on here and acted like the_logos or Threshold, they'd be reviled personally. If a free MUD committed fraud on a Medievia-like scale (for example, stealing area content verbatim and claiming it as something they wrote), they'd be reviled as an institution.

2) Threshold runs a commercial MUD, and you don't hear flames about his MUD. (You'll see them about him, but read his recent posts to see why. Hostile is an understatement.) Flames end up directed against Medievia and IRE, because the owners of those MUDs take actions which **** people off.

3) Are you claiming IRE games aren't free? They claim they are free right in their two-line blurb, and you're licensing one, so you'd know the business model. Why are you drawing a line between free and commercial MUDs and putting IRE on the commercial side? This is part of the problem people have with IRE's business practices. Take the word "Free" out of IRE's blurbs- they'll be accurate, and people won't point out the deceptive advertising. Again, no one has a problem with Threshold's advertising to my knowledge.

3B) Similarly, Medievia could take a big step in the right direction by restoring the proper credits for the codebase they are proven to be based upon.

It seems like you understood perfectly what people have been talking about then. Traithe is a long time, well respected member of the community, while Mr. M.M or Ms. French Sun are long time but NOT respected members of the community.

You also hit the nail in your last phrase, it is also because Traithe earned his stripes first, whereas others just stole them, patched them and cleared credits to start up.

So, if you seem to have gotten the main points, why do you keep discussing?

Arrogance is unwarranted self-importance. It's when you feel you are more important than you are.

Matt (the_logos) does not appear arrogant to me in these posts. He is winning the battle for having some of the most successful muds by vote on this list, and most likely some of the most financially successful as well. On these two points he has my admiration.

It's been interesting to see the balls of reactive emotion blurt things out at each other on this list. But in the end, no matter how much irrationality is present, it seems like several people were wronged.

Medevia IV should not have to submit to the letter and for all eternity to an agreement they made a long time ago. However, if the agreement they made is no longer suitable for them, they should renegotiate it into a win-win situation. It seems fairly obvious that their mud would not exist were it not for the contributors to MERC1.0.

Attempting to enforce on another that they cannot ever charge for something built on top of their work seems criminal. It is limiting the industrious poor and thus opressive, creating slaves. Linux, for example, does not have such a prohibitive license.

A skilled laborer is worth his hire. I suggest Medevia IV cough up some percentage of their gross profits (10-20%) to those on the MERC/Diku team and restore their credits. I also suggest that the MERC/Diku team put in some reasonable clauses that set terms for commercial enterprises. If both sides cannot resolve the situation, one or both are probably suffering from an inflated sense of self-importance. In that case Medevia IV should buy a commercial game engine license, give themselves a deadline, and transfer over to it.

Making money is not bad and not making money is not bad. But it's a horrible thing when people focus blindly on one or the other and fail to have the decency to focus on the other people involved and try to understand them, and why they are doing what they are doing.

Also, if someone has a holier-than-thou attitude, you can safely bet that they are an individual with a lot of personal issues themselves, and they are trying to enforce their limitations on others because unburdening their own would be too painful.

Xotl