prof1515: April 11 2006,04:27
Maybe Jason could have expressed himself in a more polite way, but in this statement he is totally correct. As somebody already pointed out, there are two different cultures among muds, and for those that are only familiar with commercial games it is apparently hard to understand, that for some people money isn’t the main factor.

Some of the pay-for-perks muds seem to be totally adapted to the commercial world, where anything can be bought and sold, including integrity, and consequently they believe (or pretend to believe) that everyone else is the same.

In the mud that I currently play, you’d be publicly ridiculed by both the administrators and the players if you tried to buy some beefed up equipment for real money. And even when I once offered to donate some money to help with the upkeep of the server, the offer was politely turned down by the owners, who referred me to the Diku and Circle licence.

Note that I said ‘donate’, which to me means ‘give away’, without expecting anything in return beyond a simple ‘thank you’. To the commercial muds ‘donate’ obviously means something different; a synonym to ‘purchase’.

In fact these muds sometimes seem to use the same kind of Newspeak that was first introduced in Orwell’s 1984 (i.e. 'The Ministry of War' is called 'Ministry of Peace', 'Ministry of Lies' becomes 'Ministry of Truth’ etc.).

The technique used by some commercial Muds is not quite as blatant, but still the original meaning of a word is stretched and twisted, to make it sound better. So ‘Purchase’ becomes ‘Donation’, ‘Pay-for-perks’ becomes ‘Free to play’. Letting the meaning of a word slide like this is an underhand way of disguising the truth. It’s very obvious why they do it too, for those that aren’t totally blindsided. And although it may not be against the law, or even against the common practice among commercial games, it still looks bad to many of us. In a way the commercialisation of the world is slowly undermining the ethic standards that most people adhered to as late as 10 years ago.

And perhaps that is why I prefer the atmosphere of the really free muds. Another reason is of course that the concept ‘Fair Play’ still is alive and kicking in those Muds. The chance of success isn’t largely depending on the size of your wallet.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the thrust of your post, I would be curious to know a couple of things...

1. If not money, then what should it depend on?

2. How do you define 'success' at playing a mud?

Are you seriously trying to claim some sort of moral high-ground here?

And what's this about 'disguising the meaning'? IRE can't sell anything unless the customers know there's something for sale. The goal most certainly isn't to disguise the ability to spend money on the game.

EDIT: Bah. Ninja'd.

Jason wrote:
One wonders how they intend to play the game without an OOC factor, such as the player himself, affecting the game. Without OOC factors, there can be no player skill. Without OOC factors, no player can be permitted to play longer than another player (free time of the player is an OOC factor after all). Without OOC factors, all players must have precisely the same latency, or OOC factors have just crept into the game. Etc.

Eliminating OOC factors is a strawman that is both undesirable and impossible.

--matt

No problem. I can understand asking. It's simply common usage, and it's accepted by basically everyone outside of a few hobbyists. I ran a roundtable recently at the largest game developers conference in the world (10,000+ games industry people), for instance, full of professionals from every walk of the games industry entitled "Free-to-play, pay for virtual assets." Nobody, in three sessions of the roundtable and hundreds of participants in total, had a problem with calling the model free to play. The Federal Trade Commission doesn't have a problem with it (and you're on a site regulated by them). Google doesn't have a problem with it. It's just how it is. If these guys want to invent their own term, that's fine, but what free means is well-understood and well-accepted, and we're not going to change just because a few people don't like it.

It's not just the games industry either, I might add. Common usage of the word free permits "buy one, get one free", in which case you -have- to buy something to get something else for free (in our games, you don't have to buy anything, ever. You could play 24/7 and never buy a thing). You can argue that's deceptive, etc etc, but at the end of the day, the rest of the country and world understands just what it means.

--matt

Our philosophy has always been that everything inside the game should be the result of actions taken within the game, and that everyone should have equal opportunity to reach their own goals.  We don't offer equal results to every player--it's a competitive environment, and reaching your goal (victory in combat, leadership of a political or religious group, etc.) may deny another player their goal.  As game administrators (and players.. we encourage our staff to remain active as players), we don't feel any need to set goals for the players.  They come in with them!  

The philosophy isn't unique-- the rules of most sports are designed with this philosophy.  The NFL has (especially recently) developed a good model for this (restrictive salary cap, tight policies on equipment and drug use, parity-oriented drafting, etc.) and its continued popularity in the US comes from the fact that at the beginning of each season, many teams have a realistic chance to win.  Fans often feel that every year could be their year, barring stupid management decisions or bad luck with injuries.

On the other hand, Major League Baseball has sadly drifted towards "pay-for-perks" lately... while the Florida Marlins could technically win a championship with this year's payroll ($14,998,500), I wouldn't wager that they're going to win more games than the Yankees ($194,663,079).  Much like a low-budget player in a "pay-for-perks" world, the Marlins are allowed to play, just not win.

Going back to the original point of the thread, Anitra is trying to make a list of MUDs where fairness-oriented philosophies are in place, for precisely the reasons Prof1515 and others have elaborated.  There are a sizable number of players who don't want an environment where RL money tramples over skill and achievement.  TMS's search system doesn't highlight those games (thanks to all the Newspeak pay MUDs calling themselves "Free!"), so Anitra is creating a separate resource (this thread) which fills that gap.

It's about what is honest, not what is technically legal to advertise.

A few statements.

A) Good post, Emil; you sum up what we are constantly trying to make a point of here on these forums.

B) Can we update the post on the main page, perhaps, Anitra? So that people who are using this thread as a referrence can easily refer to the first post and not read this off-topicness?

C) Matt, as a moderator who has already shown himself being more-than-willing to "remove off-topic posts" and "flame-baiting", I've got something to ask of you.


Moderate yourself. Period. Stop derailing this conversation. Show us that you aren't a bias moderator and have some control over your fingers and your ego, and leave this thread alone, unless you have advertising to post up here for MUDs that do NOT sell perks for money.


To everyone else - there are threads and subjects on which it is good to take a stand against Matt's ethical(or unethical, depending) approach to the MUDing community. Let's not give him the time of day here, as this thread is meant to help the so called best of the "fringe, 100% Free Hobbyist MUDs", or in otherwords, the MUDs we(in this post) enjoy more than IRE games and want to see benefit from something similar to what Syno should have done here to begin with(creating a list of completely free MUDs, that is).

Unfortunately, the moderators of this particular forum on TMS don't seem to have a problem with off-topic insults, which is their right, of course.

--matt

I went ahead and organized the list, here it is.

1. 4 Dimensions
2. Aabahran
3. Abandoned Realms
4. Adventures Unlimited
5. Armageddon
6. Avendar: The Crucible of Legends
7. Awakened Worlds
8. Clandestine MUD
9. Discworld
10. Dragon's Den
11. Everwar
12. Godwars II
13. Harshlands
14. LegendMud
15. Realms of Despair
16. Shadows of Isildur
17. Shattered Kingdoms
18. Sloth MUD
19. The Secret of Atlas
20. Unwritten Legends
21. Xyllomer
22. Zebedee

In some cases, like RPIs, it's about assuming a character and role-playing that character as if you were them. It's been compared to, and made fun of by some as, online acting. That's probably a good comparison. Sure some people are Morgan Freemans while others are more comparable to the cast of a junior high play, but in the end, it's the attempt that matters, not the success. As long as they're trying to RP and not H&S, people are happy.

For some MUDs, like the RPIs, success would be playing the character unlike yourself in a complete and believable manner. But ultimately, RPI or not, it's entertainment. There doesn't have to be "success" versus "failure" result. Did you have "success" while watching TV last night? Did you have "success" while hanging out with friends last week? If you enjoyed yourself, that's all the success you need. Not everything in life, MUDs included, require fierce competition to define success or enjoyment.

Take care,

Jason

Jesus - everything you post is like poison, Matt. Can we all get back on topic, please? The topic is advertising for MUDs that do NOT sell perks for money. Matt's continual attempts to derail this conversation succeed unless we either get moderation or(preferrably) everyone ignores his off-topic underhandedness. I, myself, have a hard time doing this when his posts are so frustratingly anti-community; however, I think it's in all of our best interests for this particular thread.

Thanks Ild - that organization is good. I'll try to help pound out the links to those games' websites and ports, for easier connection access.

Wow, Matt really is the Dick Cheney & Halliburton of MUDing.

Anyway, thanks for the list, I hope to be checking out some of these games soon. This is what community is about.

Well, it was your choice to move the thread to another Forum. Maybe not as smart a choice as you thought.

Is it possible for you to post without lobbing off-topic insults?

--matt

Why? It's not my thread that's being derailed with the insults. If I were the topic poster, I'd be pretty annoyed with those trying to make someone else (me) the subject of the thread.

--matt

Did anybody see the updated list?  Do you guys think the MUD url's should be posted on the list as well as the name?

I think she expressed her dissatisfaction with the person who derailed this topic when she posted . Quite the sorry attempt to play victim after being the one to initiate digression to attack another MUD. The only people that buy that constant "I'm a victim" story are the ones accustomed to buying things from you. And I'm not just talking your bull**** on the forums of course.

My apologies to Anitra though that this unfortunate derailment has gone on as long as it has (and we all know this likely won't be the last time Matt tries to derail a topic about something he feels threatened by, like free MUDs). As far as the list is concerned, all the MUDs I can think of immediately (without checking to be sure) are presently covered on the list.

Take care,

Jason

I like the list. I think we should definitely add website url's and connection info(link and port number) for each, that way we can keep this thread updated and people can have easy access.

Later on, perhaps we could even add a one line summary of each game? What do you think, would that be too much?

If on the front post, we had an edited alphabetical list with website info, connection info, and a one-line summary of each game - it would be a huge benefit to people looking for 100% Free MUDs,

Certainly she expressed her dissatisfaction, but it wasn't over a derailment. My posts in reply to her made a factual correction to a claim she made and then posited that what she was saying was not really what she meant. In both cases, I was commenting directly on what the original poster posted. Not off-topic. The resulting insults from the original poster, you, and others, off-topic. In no way was I the topic of the thread, and yet you and others have done your best to ensure that I am the topic of the thread, which is completely off-topic.


I love free MUDs. Our company runs four of them. No reason to feel threatened.



--matt

I, again, as hard as he makes it, encourage the readers of this thread not to respond to Matt's off-topic comments and let us brainstorm on how we can best advertise here(and elsewhere) with our growing list of quality 100% Free MUDs.

There's one poster continually trying to derail Anitra's post, and it isn't Anitra. She's trying to make a list of games that fit her criteria, and you just barge in repeatedly with off-topic potshots based on technicalities. You push, other people push back, then you complain that they pushed back.

I try to use a light touch when moderating here, but if one person is the source of the problems, the answer isn't to fix everyone else.

Further derailment snipped.

The thread is under "Advertising for Players", with the subject "Muds that do NOT sell perks for money". If you want to talk about bribing players, advertising definitions, the woes of your persecution, and the like, please go elsewhere.

Ilkidarios, your latest list doesn't seem to be the same as the other lists. For example and aren't on there, they were on the earlier ones.

Ild - good job on the lists, but also there are not Resident Evil: Reincarnate and .Dimension 2

P.S.

Thanks Valq.

the_logos wrote: April 12 2006,21:26

Sorry, Matt, we are not going to add your pay-for-perks Muds to the list of FREE Muds.

Here is the updated list now, with the URLs (login first, then Website).
If I missed any I apologise, it wasn't intentional. We can get it right the next time the list is posted.

Because there will be a next time. This list is a resource that I think should stay on the Main Page as long as possible, since it offers a real resource to potential players.
I like Donathin's idea about a one line characterisation for each mud on the list.

CRITERIA
1. No in game advantages are sold by the Administrators for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

4 Dimensions - 4dimensions.org:6000 -
Aabahran - 216.136.9.8:1848 -
Abandoned Realms - 204.209.44.8:9000 -
Adventures Unlimited - tharel.net:5005 -
Armageddon - ginka.armageddon.org:4050 -
Avendar - avendar.com:9999 -
Awakened Worlds - awakenedworlds.net:4000 -
Carrion Fields - carrionfields.com:9999 -
Clandestine - mud.clandestinemud.com:9476 -
Discworld - discworld.atuin.net:23 -
Dimension 2 - asj.mudmagic.com:6666 -
Everwar - everwar.dune.net:4242 -
Godwars II - godwars2.com:3000 -
Harshlands - muddled.harshlands.net:5555 -
Legendmud - legendmud.org:9999 -
Medieval Times - mud.lordtrox.com:8500 -
MUME - mume.pvv.org:23 -
Realms of Despair - realms.game.org:4000 -
Resident Evil:Outbreak - tyro.genesismuds.com:5300 -
Shadows of Isildur - middle-earth.us:23 -
Shattered Kingdoms - mud.shatteredkingdoms.org:1996 -
Sloth mud - slothmud.org:6101 -
The secret of Atlas - atlasmud.com:4445 -
Wheel of Time MUD - 207.234.147.46:2222 -
Unwritten legends - -
Zebedee - -

Although I suggested this before and the muds wern't interested at the time (5? or so years ago), I wonder if the time is ripe again to suggest taking this further and building a site around it. This is something I typically do commercially, with the big idea being that the site is a landing page for web queries - for for example "free rpg", "free mud" etc. It's perfectly doable but it'll take at least 20 or so muds cooperating to get any real results.

The big idea here is to have all the muds point a few pages towards this site, to have pages listing these muds but to make the display order random, so that no site gets any intended advantage. Where it floundered last time was the question of 'but we send more traffic so we expect to be featured more', which is a reasonable point but I really can't be doing with the hassle of counting votes etc.

How about I get a basic demo put up on the wot site, and if you guys think it's worth the effort then we can look at purchasing a toplevel domain for it etc.

I'd certainly use such a site. The key is to not make redundant resources (thus diluting all sites), but it doesn't sound like you're doing that. Any number of analogues exist in the philanthropy community to help volunteers find organizations and provide some visibility for both.

If you get to the point of purchasing a domain, drop me an email.

While I certainly appreciate the gesture (and the publicity), I feel it's only fair to point out that God Wars II is still in open beta, and not yet fully operational.

Ummm, I guess I could sort of understand the need to advertise for non-commercial MUDs, if you feel they're being undervalued or something. But is there a reason non-commercial MUDs can't fairly compete with commercial MUDs? This kind of looks like a "taking your ball and going home" kind of thing.

The lack of money to throw at advertising is one obvious reason.

Isn't that offset by a lower popularity due to payment restrictions? And I'm pretty sure I've seen advertisements from MUDs who aren't commercial, Carrion Fields is the first that springs to mind and it's on the list here.

Is it possible for this list to be stickied?

The evidence would suggest otherwise.

A few of the completely free muds will pay for banners out of their own pocket, but you won't see anything approaching the sort of advertising that the commercial muds can afford.

Is that really true though? Just looking at the top 5

Achaea (commercial)
Aardwolf (leaning toward non-commercial)
WoTMUD (non-commercial)
Carrion Fields (leaning toward non-commercial)
Discworld (non-commercial)

Looking at the list here it looks like there isn't actual evidence to support that claim. Unless I'm missing something?

Well the TMS mud list doesn't really have much to do with popularity, but take a look at the top 10 and you'll see that half are commercial muds. What percentage of the other 90 do you think are commercial?

And keep in mind that these represent the smaller commercial muds - the really big ones, like GemStone or DragonRealms, don't even bother getting their players to vote.

Well, the numer is really arbitrary, you could look at the top 20 and then compare. I'm seeing a pretty equal distribution, even in just the top 10 though, that certainly doesn't support the assertion that non-commercial MUDs can't compete because of lack of funds to go to advertizing.

The fact that they're completely free is a big enough bonus to popularity it would seem, from the results here. So this once again poses the question, why do they feel they can't compete, when they're doing so quite successfully already?

We currently have a banner because a player contacted Synozeer and bought the space for one on his own initiative. It's a very generous gesture, but I fail to see how it would make us "commercial".

Well, you do sell stuff. I didn't say you were pay for perks and even said you were leaning toward non-commercial. But you are selling things.

1) The advantage we get from being truly "free" is diluted by the advertising practices of some of the commercial games. That practice is permitted here, but we would welcome an alternative which made the distinction clear.

2) What harm would such a site do? You're writing a lot of posts questioning its existence, but as long as someone else takes care of the labor and money required to put up such a site, why do you care if one exists?

You're missing four major points:

1) There are far more non-commercial muds listed here than there are commercial ones, meaning that the commercial muds are generally much higher in the rankings.

2) The largest of the non-commercial muds are present on the list, while the larger commercial muds are not.

3) TMS is only one form of advertising, and a relatively minor one (which also ties in to point 2 - the larger commercial muds don't even consider it worth bothering with).

4) It doesn't cost anything to list your mud on TMS, which makes the entire example rather irrelevent.

My previous answer stands: The non-commercial muds don't have the same amount of money to throw at advertising. Non-commercial muds can't generally afford to maintain banners on mud and general gaming sites, to buy advertising space in printed magazines, and so on.

1) That's not really the case. Nobody keeps playing and voting for a game they don't like. Being completely free is not a one-shot advertising advantage, it's part of the game concept and as such has value well beyond the first three lines of text in the advertisement.

2) I don't really care about what sort of harm it would do, I'm just horribly puzzled by the mindset. You're here competing with other MUDs successfully, but for some reason you want to take your ball home and not have to compete with them? Am I misunderstanding this somehow?

You're welcome to start your own site with its own criteria and not include us. I don't demand that your home MUD (Aetolia/IRE) should put up material advertising Carrion Fields. I don't see us ceasing to sell CF coffee mugs and whatnot.

However, given that we meet Anitra's criteria, and nass is proposing to make a site based on her list, I don't see what the problem is.

But this whole thing is about TMS, isn't it? What does it matter if there are bigger commercial MUDs somewhere out there? They're not competing here. So what if there are far more non-commercial MUDs listed here than commercial ones? A lot of them simply aren't popular enough to compete for the top 20 - be it against commercial or other non-commercial MUDs.

How is it irrelevant? I wasn't speaking of TMS as an advertisement platform but rather as a measure of popularity for the sampling of MUDs we have here. Non-commercial MUDs can compete just as successfully as commercial ones, it would seem from the results here. This is where the competition occurs, after all.

Why does this matter in regard to TMS? If non-commercial MUDs are completing succesfully here, it's obvious that this advantage is offset by something else.

Completely agreed. Our current monthly advertising budget stands at $0, and we're one of the larger "actually free in practice" (*) games. We aggressively try to make ourselves visible on various sites that permit free advertising (like the forums here), but it's not as simple as writing a check.

It's a whole different world. I know it, you know, and it seems to me like everyone on this thread except the IRE affiliates knows it.

(*): Or whatever term we're forced to use to describe our operations model here..

I claimed there was a problem with CF selling things? Or with being on the list?

What I'm asking for is justification for this whole thing, these MUDs are already listed here, what is the justification for listing them on another side but leaving out the other MUDs they're competing against here?

I think so - I've not seen anyone proposing that they leave TMS. Instead, they seem to be suggesting joining forces to help promote each other, pooling their resources so as to draw extra attention to their games. Sounds like a good idea to me, and I'm surprised to hear objections.

If it's mutual promotion, I could understand it. But I don't understand the hint of indignation at having to share TMS with commercial MUDs, hence I felt the need to ask why they would seek promotion around a criteria such as pay-for-perks vs not-pay-for-perks. I'm not even objecting, I just don't understand the reasons behind it.

Stabs aside, it looks to me like you're complaining here that your model isn't working for you as well as you'd like it to. Do you feel you'd be more popular if you went commercial? Commercial MUDs gain the perk of being able to finance advertising and non-commercial MUDs gain the perk of being more attractive because of the obviously lower price to participate. Judging from the rankings, these things are evened out.

No, it's about free muds, and giving them exposure because they don't generally have the funds to pay for banners and advertisements.

Because the point is that non-commercial muds cannot afford to throw the same sort of money at advertising as the commercial muds can. The TMS listings are free and therefore obviously not the sort of advertising being discussed.

Unfortunately it doesn't provide an accurate measure of popularity.

It doesn't - the discussion is not about TMS, it's just taking place on the TMS forums.

Because the commercial muds already have an advantage when it comes to advertising. The proposal being discussed here is that those muds which lack that advantage should pool their resources to create their own advantage.

Two questions:

1) Why is free advertising considered to be irrelevant in comparison to paid advertising when they both accomplish the same goal - i.e. exposure? If someone comes to TMS they see a banner and they see a list of other MUDs advertising themselves a couple of inches lower. Is this a mammoth difference? And this really applies to all sorts of advertising mediums, magasines and gaming sites can and do review games without payment.

2) Your points seem to hinge on the assumption that advertising is a much stronger factor in acquiring players than lower price. How do you support this?