What the hell is happening to this forum?

In a period of two days, this subject has gotten FIVE PAGES of posts!  Why?  I mean, whenever something that actually discusses interesting subject matter is started it gets maybe five posts and then dies.

I know I used to make posts like this, but as I've spent more time on here I've changed my subject matter.  This is just nuts.

I usually recommend complaining to a moderator of the thread. Generally, one blames either the person starting the flames, or the person most active in perpetuating them.

I don't know what to do when a moderator is both of those people, though.

Prof1515, the last things you've posted have consisted of nothing but insults. What an excellent argument this is. Matt is rationally explaining his side, and you are spewing insults and trying to aggrivate him. I, for one, don't see anything wrong with what Matt does. The IRE games are FREE to play. To play. That means, you can log in, and get a character, and level up and do everything someone who bought credits can, other than the things that you purchase with credits. It shouldn't have to be any deeper than this. Have fun childishly insulting people and treating it like a valid argument.

If you think Matt was rational then your opinion is obviously invalidated by bias. He was every bit as defamatory as Prof and he initiated it. Prof responded in kind to Matt's own antics.

Ilkidarios: Mar. 17 2006,15:49    
Just a reminder, in case you or anyone else forgot, since the thread got so long:

the_logos: Mar. 15 2006,23:45  
Fringe minority? Flamefests? Vitriol?

Who started this thread in the first place?
Who is the one commonly known for broadly insulting a large number of Mudowners, or singling out a special target to spew his vitriol on?
Who is the one repeatedly posting flamebait, (like supporting the code-thieving Medievia or encouraging other mudowners to break the Diku licence?)
Who is the one usually provoking the flames, and/or starting the personal insults or attacks on a particular Mud or person?
Who is the one that constantly reacts to even moderate criticism by lashing out violently?
Who is the one that drove several interesting posters off the Forums here, because they couldn't stand his antics?
Who is the one that wrote a majority of the more inflammatory posts on the thread himself?

Take the time to read through this thread, and a number of similar threads, and perhaps the picture will become a bit clearer to you.

So why did the_logos start this thread?
I am inclined to agree with Crystal that he is doing it for the free publicity. Apparently he belongs to the people who believe that all publicity is good publicity. I remember Vryce doing the same in the past. Now that he's mercifully withdrawn from the boards, Soleil has taken his role. (With friends like that, who needs enemies?)

I am growing increasingly tired of these flame threads myself.
They are of course a bad thing, because they tend to drown all attempts at serious discussions on the boards, which in turn is negative for the quality of the site.

But they will continue.
Because a significant number of people are disturbed by unethical behaviour.

As long as Soleil persists in flaunting stolen goods on the boards, every one of those threads will probably be 'polluted' by one or more posters pointing out that the goods is indeed stolen.
And as long as the_logos persists in actively preventing a desirable addition to the search engine, using all methods available, (including bullying, veiled threats, speaking on behalf of the list owner, word-twisting and insults), this topic will also pop up repeatedly.
Because most people with the capacity of independent and unbiased thinking realise, that a distinction between truly free Muds and pay-to-play or pay-for-perks games is information that would be valid to a majority of the players around, and as such would improve the quality of the site.

It has been said before, but it deserves to be said again:
It’s not the IRE games that people have a problem with, it’s the behavior of  the_logos on the boards.
I don't recall any of the active posters here actually attacking the IRE _muds_.
I do however recall the_logos attacking other people’s muds on several occasions.
So who sets the standards here?

I wouldn't worry too much, he's been at it for years. This forum just happens to be his current stomping ground. I didn't notice he was a moderator, nice sense of irony from the board owner.

Given that their games seem to be inferior copies of Avalon and their owner frequently makes himself out to be an asshat, I can't help but admire the commercial success that IRE has had.

Maybe some members of this community need to reflect on why the two biggest factors in the success of IRE; namely their charging model and the 'tenacity' *cough* of the_logos, are the two things that they seem to hate the most?

I have to agree with you Anitra. On one hand, most of the people here already know the issues with the repetative problem MUDs or rather... people who run/own them. On the other, people feel the need to educate any new people to MUDs on how the repetative problem MUDs/owners are doing wrong.

Though I can honestly say, I've never tried a MUD on someones recommendation, and I've certainly never not tried a MUD on someones recommendation.

Again, I believe this to just be an attempt at more publicity, and people taking the bait. Why else would there be 3 separate threads on the main page just concerning IRE?

I've heard all I've ever wanted to know about IRE games and then some. I personally just don't see the appeal. Then again, I've played plenty of free MUDs that suited me just fine.

It'd be nice if the flamewars like these were just cut immediately. But I don't think anyone has the patience to really moderate that.

Why would I be jealous? I am offended by Matt though because I find dishonesty offensive. I also find it pathetic, a feeling I share for those who are ignorant in the face of overwhelming information. However, I don't pity dishonest people. I do pity those who are ignorant and who don't have the intelligence and reasoning skills to realize as much. So consider yourself pitied by me.

Take care,

Jason

Is there some psychological reason why people who play MUDs are among the worst debaters and forum users I have ever seen?

[edit: seems I can't even spell "mud", myself...]

I am not even close to being informed about what Iron Realms or any other mud mentioned in the post does or doesn’t do. I have not played any of the muds mentioned and therefore won’t comment on the quality of the games. I’ve noticed that a number of people are indeed simply “flaming” because they do not care the demeaning and condescending and demeanor portrayed by Matt. It appears to me people are offering comment on the dispute between Matt and Jason without understanding what is being discussed. Jason does not have any issue with the way Iron Realms is run. The issue he raises is that he feels it is dishonest to advertise as being free to play. As evident in the quote below:

I am not familiar with what Iron Realms does or does not do or how free or costly it is to play. There is no mudding regulation authority that sets guidelines that say you can call yourself  “free to play”, “pay to play”, or any other titles that may exist, if and only if you this or that. I find it slightly amusing (for the lack of a better word to describe my feelings on the issue) that people actually get this upset over this. I can’t imagine that advertising that your mud is free to play could possibly help you scientifically (given the majority of muds are).  If I were to play a mud that was advertised as “free to play” and found out some people pay to get an in game advantage I would leave. I don't like that type of mud so I would make the decision to quit. I haven’t seen any Iron Realms players here complaining about the mud or its advertising (albeit I haven’t been looking either). My thinking on this would be that there are not many if any. I don’t know about everyone else but if I didn’t like a mud…I wouldn’t play it. Why would you play a mud you didn't like? Who does it hurt if they advertise they are “free to play”? The players will make the decision on if they want to continue to play or not. There may be a valid ethical issue here but I don’t see that being resolved any time soon so arguing the issue on public forms doesn’t seem like the best use of time.  Neither does making personal attacks or attacking each other’s muds. I know from an Administrators aspect I couldn’t give a damn if most of you liked or didn’t like my mud. Why…because seems most of the people commenting on the mud itself appear to be staff on muds and are not perspective players and therefore mean nothing to me. I would much rather see the forums get back to where they were when I first entered the mudding community…thought provoking conversation along with fun and fellowship.

Simply my two cents.

          -- Zyrian

I have been playing Lusternia for well over a year now. I have never once been 'solicited' to make a payment, and besides the announce posts in which the admins announce upcoming credit sales, I've never once heard a god suggesting that someone should buy credits, let alone demanding it.

My current character is a Marquis within Magnagora, which is the highest rank a citizen can attain without being on the ruling council. He is also a high-ranking member of his guild, holds several positions (including guild protector and the head of the Ministry of the Ambassador), has reached level 70, has decent skills, and is, overall, a fairly well-known and respected authority within the gameworld. I have never sent IRE one penny of my money, and I doubt I ever will. There are plenty others like me.

By the way, ever noticed how most people use IRE bashing more to promote their own MUD than to slander IRE's MUDs? "Yeah, they suck, but look at what we have...

Everything was okay up to this point.  I've never really seen someone use this tactic on the forum.

Most attacks are actually valid bad points of the IRE game system.  However, certain individuals don't like Matt, and thus let this carry into their arguments.  But even those folks wouldn't just use it as a cheap way to advertise their MUD.

No, you don't have to spend credits to become one of the Council, You have to prove yourself to the city to be elected to become a council member. To be a part of a commune's/city's ruling council you have to be a guild leader, and nothing says you had to buy credits. Just prove that you will do a damn good job of running that guild and that city. You can TRANS a skill without buying credits OUT OF CHARACTER, there are Ingame credits which you have to spend gold on. NOT MONEY.


I would like to simply say this: Those of you have posted to this and said that Matt simply started this thread to provoke people, then don't be stupid enough to reply to it. (Not trying anything bad about Matt starting this) Matt, in my opinion, started this thread to get all of you who flame in other threads at Matt to flame in one place and not screw up those other threads. I've seen that sort of thing happen, on the Lusternia forums. It gets nasty. And we've got a rule on there: NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. And many of the comments on here are personal attacks.

We already have a [Flames] thread, so I'm not sure why he would make this one.

For his own enjoyment?

Probably, I obviously wasn't started for reasonable discussion. It's pretty much a bait thread. Some people act like it's to bring all the anti-IRE people into one area, but it's really only in certain areas anyways.

Matt r teh suck

Nerf IRE's ads plz

<insert random and badly spelled flame about Matt's mother's weight here>

kthxbye

You're acting like posts like that weren't the reason this thread was started.  If Matt didn't want people to speak badly about him, then maybe he shouldn't have started an Iron Realms flame thread.

ok well maybe he shouldn't of done that



talith of the rouges

Why nerf IRE ads?

I have already posted many times,but let me repeat.
My character is Ikki.I am playing all 4 of IRE muds.No one has ever asked me to pay for credits or such.The games are free to play,anytime,from anywhere.If players want to spend their money on credits,that is their right(I bought credits only once for Achaea).
However let me repeat this again.IRE MUDS ARE FREE TO PLAY

i may not play ire's rpgs but i have looked at the reviews and have done the novice introductions and have progressed to high lvls without  having or have been asked to buy credits



talith of the rouges

lovechiefs and talith:

My question would be, but are you competitive in PvP?

I have been, and without spending money.

talith-malinos @ Mar. 21 2006,02:18
What reviews? IRE don't allow any reviews.

And if you don't play, except for doing the newbie introductions, how exactly did you progress to high lvls?

Just curious, since your post doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Reviews, he might mean the testimonials IRE has from players on their website. As for the other part... I was thinking the same thing as you.

It's time for me to stop lurking and start posting. I'm a player that lurked these forums for last few months. Yesterday I formally registered as I thought it could not hurt. I haven't played MUDs for long (Just over a year now). I bring this to the boards- I played only two MUDs and one of them being IRE's (Achaea to be precise). I know zilch on programming and I have no MUD that I operate or work with.

It is possible in an IRE mud to attain the maximum level (And potential) without using money. The caveat here is time. Unless one person has mass amounts of free time and by mass I mean solid weeks, or even months of clocked gameplay. Another perspective is if one graphed this. For example- Population(y axis) against Maximum Potential (X axis). The graph will be a bimodal with the middle being the fewest as there are two distinctive classes or poles. The middle connecting both poles represent players with patience and or minimal sums of money. As the ends represent those who can afford it (time and money) or those who cannot (Not enough time or money).

So yes, Matt is technically right that his MUDs are free to play, since one can attain the maximum level and potential (In a much longer time frame). However, that person would need to have devoted substantial amounts of time to do so, an amount unparrallel to a person that payed.

Was I deceived by Matt and his firm? Well at first, I didn't know what credits were, but it was made evident within the first hour of gameplay having asked "What are these credits that peole keep talking about?". Do I wish that they can make credits more clear on the homepage or to newbies? Yes. Was I peeved? Not really but it was a shock and explained many oddities among players comparing to myself.

I have played and still playing many MMORPGs and I wasn't surprised about the credits.I actually was expecting something like that.
Also to note is that players can purchase credits from other players in exchange of game money(that way no real money is spent)

Yes, that's how anyone can attain maximum potential in his games. However, it is a slow tedious process, where it is cheaper and more efficient for the player to have a job essentially.

I've gotten about $600 worth of credits in a couple months back when I played around in Lusternia, spending my normal couple hours a day playing. Far more than I would be willing to spend out of my paycheck. But you're right, the idea is that it should take more time to max out if you don't have the money to spend.

So what kind of stuff do you trade other players for these in-game credits?

That is correct
You trade in game money(gold) for credits

Well, I took the time to read it all.

First off, Matt pays money for advertisement. You can see what he's gotten out of it by looking at the homepage. People see his stuff, hear about the features, and try it out. He gets more players, and a percentage of those may go on to become customers. That's it. That doesn't mean there's some shadowy conspiracy, a dark hand holding TMS in its 'Iron' grip.

Yeah, it might be a bit of a blow if Matt pulled away his advertising. But you're insulting Synozeer if you think that's enough to make him curl up in a ball and die over it. It's business, and people can actually conduct it without getting some mafioso, pusher-addict relationship going.

Do I like IRE muds? As a matter of fact, no, no I don't. I don't care for them, I don't like playing them, they're not what I look for in a mud.

Slinging insults back and forth won't get much done; I know that, as thick as I am. If anything, it's just weakening the arguments for new labeling and letting Adam know that he doesn't need to take you seriously.

Prof1515, you're obnoxious. And that's not to say Matt didn't get down there in the trenches with you, but he at least had some actual points to make. You're not doing Valg any favors; everytime I'm half-convinced by one of his arguments, you chime in and I'm disgusted with it all over again. If you are interested in Valg's purpose and not just arguing with Matt, you need to reconsider your style a bit, and not take things so personally. You're acting like an angry ex-girlfriend.

Yeah, sure is nice to have people around that don't sling insults.  Really makes this forum a better place.

This entire subject is silly and not progressive - the subject name alone probably keeps Syno(the only real person here who has the ability to make Matt act accountable for his attitude/actions/manipulations) look right past this thread and at other threads.

I'm sure the campaign to make all MUDs and MUD resource sites be accountable for their affect on the community will continue. As a favorite graphic novel of mine constantly reflects, "With great Power comes great Responsibility." Large, innovative, influential MUDs should throw their weight to make themselves role-models for the entire community. All Matt's attitude and IRE's approach(besides Lusternia, which takes responsibility for what it is enough in my opinion) shows the community is that underhanded manipulation, public derisiveness, egocentricism, and greed are good ways to create a successful MUD. IRE's not alone in this, granted, several other MUDs(such as Midievia) also support this observation.

Personally, having done just about everything one can do in this community within the past 14 years, I find Valg/Carrion Fields and Kavir/GodwarsII to be a far better role models - showing the community that underdogs can not only compete and out-innovate commercial MUDs, but can also act progressively and ethically within the community, without backing down from bullies.

I fully agree that this subject is silly and not progressive. While I agree with Matt on some of his points, I really don't see the need to start this topic (I guess some people get a kick out of flame threads).

But that aside, I have also been meddling in the world of MUDs for the past 14 years or so. It's disappointing to see that while the world of commercial graphical MMORPG's have progressed tremendously, the world of MUDs hasn't. There's many reasons for this, but one of them is the constant infighting among MUD admins and activists. If you guys would spend as much time and effort on actually developing the games, as you do on flaming Iron Realms, maybe you'd have a chance to compete with them.

Claiming that Iron Realms is blackmailing the owners of TMS or Mudconnector is in my view silly. Should Iron Realms withdraw their financial support over something as petty as a "pay for perks" flag in a mudlisting, I'm sure other MUDs (us included) would be willing to fill that gap. Not all MUDs have the financial means of Iron Realms, but with a small cooperation some of us would have. And not all of the bigger MUDs are opposed to a "pay for perks" flag.

As for the definition of competing with commercial MUDs, I guess that depends on your definition of competition. Is it tied to the playercount? The amount of time spent per player?

Large, innovative MUDs should definetly try to be rolemodels, but we also need to be a bit realistic here. Very few games operate for free, and most admins do not want to carry all expenses of their game after the N:th year of operation. Not to mention that to really become a large MUD, unless you have horribly good existing ties, you need something of a marketing budget.

Finally: just looking at the quality of the posts here on TMS, I find it very hard to see any here as a decent rolemodel for the MUD community. The decent rolemodel for the MUD community is one who spends his time making good games, not one who feels it's his duty in life to flame other admins.

Regards,
Gore (admin of BatMUD)

I agree with nhl.
Stop infighting and help the muds compete with the graphics MMORPGs

I think it is just that I wish you could see the difference between some's "flaming" and others' activating. I am fair - period. I am not flaming IRE, or being unfair to it in any way whatsoever. Infact, Matt does plenty of flaming to MUDs he deems less successful, and that is the primary reason why I speak out at all.

Some of us do put our energies towards developing innovative games and simultaneously being vocal role-models in the community. Some of us work co-operatively with other MUDs in the community, and want nothing more than the community to be as helpful as it can be. Those of us that do, also are the ones that tend to not like the negative affect MUDs like Midievia and Achaea(or specifically, Matt/IRE) have on the community without giving back in return.

It is important for you, the poster, to understand the difference between a true "flame" and something that has more positive intentions. It's very possible that you are players of IRE, though, and will defend your games no matter what I write here - which, while understandable/acceptable, does make it difficult for us to make any real headway.

I'm not daft enough not to see a difference between a flame and a regular conversation. I questioned the motives why this thread was even started. Nonetheless, some of you really have swallowed the bait.

I have no affiliation with IRE whatsoever - I don't play their games. I still think it's silly that you have spent years fighting over their definition of free. It's true that all MUDs like to advertise being free (it's an advantage compared to games which force you to pay a monthly fee), but let's face it - the world has changed since the 1990s. The "de facto" standard meaning of "free" seems to be that it's limited in scope, or has a catch. "Free cell phone with 36 month subscription", "Free email (if you watch our ads)", you name it...

As Matt has pointed out, the FTC agrees with the usage of "free" as in allowing someone to play (free of charge) even if there is a commercial revenue model behind it (pay for advantages). It may be misleading and understandably somewhat annoying for MUDs in which the admins pay everything out of their own pockets, but it's legal and accepted nonetheless. Except on this forum...

Gore (admin of BatMUD)

It is accepted - we just want this resource site to have a means for the user/MUD-seeker to be able to differentiate between MUDs that have no hidden charges, and MUDs that do.

Just because the rest of the world has begun to grey the lines between commercial/free, does not mean that we cannot(at least on some level, on a resource site) expect more from our own community.

I don't think anyone is asking IRE to change their advertising. People are asking Synozeer/TMS to label games as "Free", "May-Pay-for-Perks", or "Pay-To-Play" vis-a-vis the current system of only "Free" or "Pay-to-Play".

The issue is not about what one can legally get away with, but instead about how this site should function as a MUD resource.

It's downright unfair that a MUD that works damn hard and doesn't have ANY income of ANY kind - gets lumped into the same category as those who not only accept donations and sell paraphenalia, but also gain income from payments for in-game benefits. That's just a bit too 'different' than the splitting hairs rubbish that the_logos and his ilk defend their stance with.

Debate the marginal differences between the various income-MUD models later - you can mark the 100% FREE muds as exactly that right now without a single ounce of confusion.

So flame (or even better, ask nicely) the owner of this site and mudconnector to add such a feature. Seems to me like you are flaming the wrong person here.

Yes yes, I read the argument about how Matt uses their financial power to "manipulate the policies". And I already countered that especially for mudconnector, should they lose Iron Realms due to them changing the policy to include a "pay for perks" option, that there will be other MUDs (including BatMUD) that will sponsor it instead.

On a technical detail, it shouldn't be too hard for either site to have both a "Free to play" (versus "Fee-based subscription") and a "Non-commercial (versus "Pay for perks") flag for the mud entries, to avoid this ambiguous interpretation of the term.

Flaming Matt or Iron Realms for TMS or Mudconnector lacking a feature is about as pointless as flaming him over a feature that your MUD lacks.

Regards,
 Gore (admin of BatMUD)

We aren't flaming Matt, and will not flame Syno - your definition of what flaming is seems askew. Also, we aren't specifically attempting to instigate change on Mudconnector on this, the TMS forum. We're attempting to incite TMS to change. The truth is that TMS' advertising depends very heavily on IRE currently, and Matt has already shown himself willing to threaten pulling advertising if he doesn't get his way.

None of this means, however, that we will stop our reasonable and dedicated attempts to educate forum readers on these matters, and to request that Syno add extra listing features. It has nothing to do with flaming Matt, Syno, or anyone else. At least not for myself and I suspect, most key others.