[Fifi]

I didn't want to derail a conversation that addresses the above issue and has informational value.

I would like to point out that it is possible to disagree without becoming enraged. The reason that there is so much animosity about the terms RPI/RPE has nothing to do with the merits of the argument, but rather the attitude of some of the participants.

And if that's not sufficiently clear it may be time to switch to decaf and introduce some leafy green vegetables into our collective diet.

[LoD]

Much of it will definitely fall down to preference.

Look at sports fans. The people they support all play the same game. Their players generally pursue the same endeavors, wear similar clothing, inhabit a similar environment, and play by a similar set of rules. Yet, many of them will argue to the point of riot and physical violence over the superiority of their "team" to that of another, espousing that the opposing "team" is garbage compared to their own.

MUDs are not so different. MUDs that classify themselves as RP-whatever generally have the propensity to soak up a lot of your time and, therefore, demand that you make a choice if you really want to get a good experience. And these are very personal choices. It's difficult enough for many people to debate instead of argue, and even harder still when personal feelings, pride, and passion enter the mix. We certainly all feel proud of the game we play -- otherwise, we would play somewhere else.

It would be nice to see more debates over the individual features and components of RP-whatever MUDs without being interrupted and overrun by people who cannot seem to keep an open mind. I enjoyed reading most of the responses to the discussion on permadeath as an element of a MUD. However, I believe the eventual degradation of most debates is as inevitable as that between two rival sports fans asked to discuss their favorite player.

-LoD

[Newworlds]

I am actually very supportive of most if not all MUD's on TMS. I think the community should support and not segregate thereby bringing more outsiders to text games. What I do not support and will not tolerate and the reason for arguments in the RPI realm is the forced acceptance of the term RPI denoting specific subset of games. But moreso, the continual bash and segregation that some posters tend to do when promoting the term.

This started with a few specific members here that do not even run or own RPI style games, which boggles me why they would be cheerleaders for this term when it is obvious the true administrators of the games the term came from do not even care about the term. Donathin Frye is not included in this group as he does own and run a game and has not acted in anything but a professional fashion.

The topic to this thread is sad in a way. For a style of gaming that is supposed to be about people getting together, any discussion on that style, drives people further apart. In general sports, asking if someone who participates in <some sport> is really an athlete will bring out the same vitriol and angry posts. It gets almost comical to see these threads come up, and see the same people reacting in the same way. Sometimes you almost have to wonder if people bump the old threads just for the entertainment value, not to really discuss the issue.

I think the real issue isn't the definition and control of the term "RPI", but the fact that there are very few new people interested in MUDs anymore, and each game has to fight for enough players to keep itself running. I am certain that a few vocal people loudly proclaiming they are right, has driven people away from RPIs and maybe even mudding in general. I know that I have distanced myself from the whole RPI scene, and usually ignore any topic with RPI or RPE in the title.

It would be nice if posters could come up with suggestions on how to improve the image of mudding in general, and how to reach out to the type of people who would enjoy the RPI(E) gaming style. Perhaps focus more on the quality of literature, and even grammar, in the games, and the depth of the story lines that players can get involved in. I find that much more important in my enjoyment of a game, than whether or not a game meets only 12 of the 19 Points.

[prof1515]

I, for one, don't get "enraged". I usually just laugh and then type out a post countering the errors in a post. Then I usually drop an IM or two to a few friends and we get a good laugh at the expense of someone else's ignorance.

However, I can't deny that I have little patience for people who are willingly ignorant and can't defend their position with facts. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion but if you can't back it up with facts and someone else can back up their position with facts that you can't disprove, my feeling is you should shut up and accept your error. I get tired of the same disproven arguments used over and over again. They weren't valid the first time they were used and they're certainly not valid once they've been proven to have no basis in fact.

The history of RPIs is something I've had an interest in for the last 10 years. For the first half of the decade I was relatively quiet, simply observing and noting things. Finally, I couldn't help but notice the abuse of the term, especially since it made using the term less effective and led to confusion for players coming into RPIs from elsewhere. Thus I began to speak up when seeing the term misused. Why? If the error was merely a case of ignorance, pointing out the facts might prevent a repeat of the mistake.

In regard to the RPI/RPE discussion, I've been challenged numerous times to produce evidence to support my position. Each time, I've met that challenge by producing the best available evidence to support it but some people just demand more evidence while they still have yet to provide anything but his opinion to back up their position. When a person's wrong, they should acknowledge it and move on with their life, not compound it in some desperate attempt to "win" an argument when they don't have a position capable of doing so.

Oh and for the record, just so you can compare fantasy with reality, I do own a RPI MUD which is still in early development (we tossed out our buggy old code in late '08 in favor of starting anew). I've admin'd on a RPI, turned down requests to admin on five other RPIs (well, four others since one request was from a staff member of SoI, the RPI I had been on before) and have played RPIs for over a decade. Of course, any argument that this adds legitimacy to the facts is irrelevant just as any argument that a lack of owning a RPI means one can not have legitimate facts. The only valid thing are the facts.

Some people are wrong about the term RPI. They're simply wrong. Their position isn't backed up by any facts. They may simply be ignorant or they may simply be unwilling to acknowledge that they're wrong which makes their decision to argue wrong as well. Sure they're entitled to their opinion but their opinion is wrong. Sticking their hands over their ears and shouting the same disproven claims over and over again doesn't make them right. That is the source of the conflict in the forums.

[Fifi]

LoD I just want to point out that sports fans are not known particularly for their affinity to salad.

[Anjanas]

Prof1515, you are such a jerk and sound so full of crap I'd never play any RPI you were associated with.

[Dedwulf]

No doubt. I thought this thread was to stop the arguments. You were being kind just using the word jerk though.

[Bakha]

Prof comes off as a jerk and full of it... really? I mean, really? In that particular post, he came off as extremely reasonable and logical to me. It seems you two might have a bit of a bias.

That being said, I've certainly seen Prof come off as an ass in his dealing with people. That post just wasn't one of those.

[KaVir]

The people who have been using the term to refer to a subset of DikuMUDs for the last couple of decades aren't going to stop using it just because a couple of LPMud owners on some random third-party forum dislike it.

But at least until now it's mostly just been minor bickering that can be ignored. This thread may have been started in good faith, but it's prime flamebait material - and if meatpuppets join in, it's going to get a lot worse. And the issue still won't be resolved.

As far as I can tell there's no enforcement of the TMS listings, and people tend to put whatever they feel like in their entries - but even if that wasn't the case, there's no option for "RPI", and that's not going to change.

[Newworlds]

I'd say he just comes off as a 5 year old. I mean really...really, he goes on IM to his little buddies (Delerak and friends) and posts, "Tee hee hee hee, hey props, check out my post where I just totally snark on that dude. Neener neener." Junior High. I'm really glad that NWA only allows players over the age of 18 so we'll likely never see this kid on the game, thank the Mud Gods.

[Bakha]

Yikes. Is prof friends/associates with Delerak? That's brutal, if so.

[Newworlds]

Not sure if friends is entirely accurate, but certainly they were associates with RPIMUD or the RPI network. They were like a tag team back in the day when the arguments with RPI started.

[prof1515]

Wrong yet again. I met Delerak from these forums. While he's hot-headed and prone to occassionally taking leaps into the absurd, he also has a long history of experience with RPI MUDs. A person's behavior may cause some to dislike him but that doesn't invalidate the facts he presents. Linking the validity of information with one's feelings toward an individual is as sure of a way as any to make errors. Let me give you an example:

You don't like me.

I tell you that drinking a gallon of anti-freeze solution is bad for you.

Does your bias against me therefore negate the validity of what I've said? Of course not but if you want to believe it does, by all means go get a gallon of anti-freeze and test my statement.

Delerak, just like anyone else from the early period of RPIs, can serve as a valuable resource for information from that period (my own experience with RPIs began in 1999 after the term and genre had already existed for over half a decade). Liking or disliking him is irrelevant to that pursuit. That said, perhaps if you got to know him instead of simply stereotyping him because of his tone, you'd realize something about yourself.

As for the insults directed at me, I have only one thing to say. Read the title of this thread and then look at your own behavior and comments. Then attempt to reason.

See, this is why I no longer associate myself with the whole RPI-movement. I used to code for RPIs, and even released my own version of an RPI engine for the general public. I like the genre, and I like coding. But I do not like 'weeding' through flames wars and hate mail, just to find out what PLAYERS want to see. I don't care what disgruntled, grouchy or stubborn ex-admins think. Do players actually want to play an RPI the way RPMUD defines it? I don't know, because player never get a chance to get a word in.