Wasn't sure where to put it, but it may affect many administrators.

As most of you know, Achaea has been trying to pass itself off as the #1 MUD in the world for some time now, and as a shock to many people, overnight in the lists they have not only beaten my MUD, a first (and mine is only in alpha, with a player base of about 5), but everyone elses as well, including Medievia's constant online playerbase of, 500+ is it? 600+? not sure exactly.

In any event, just so the rest of the mudding community doesn't think that Achaea has grown overnight or added something spectacular, or changed ownership, their latest attempt is simple: bribery.

After making false claims, false quotes, and many other false things, this is the next step in the series that once again sets Achaea at the top of the laughing stock of the mudding community.

They have they're website scripted so that when one of their players, whois is online, clicks on the vote link, the website searched the playerlists, finds a matching IP and gives the player a 10% experience bonus for gaining xp, and a 10% cut in loss of xp for dying.

I'm not sure if this is ethical or not, but I just thought I'd give everyone a heads up.

In defense of Achaea, it is a very well written piece of code, and I have nothing against the programming, but it is backed by one of the most corruptable staff the mudding community has yet to see.

James Meyer
aka Aldyn, Creator and Founder of Aeledius

Synozeer banned Medievia from the listings, after it was proven that they were violating the Diku license. However there are indeed several other muds with "large" playerbases. I'd be interested to hear what the official take is on such a script - because if it's allowed, I can see a lot of other muds following suit.

My mistake, I wasn't aware Medievia had been banned. I had heard much talk of it, but wasn't sure if it was ever followed up.

Congratulations on that point.

And yes, it is not a very hard script to create. I was thinking about employing such a script myself a while ago just because I was curious as to whether it was mostly players or non-players visiting my site.

Personally I find it bad ethical practice, but that is what I have come to expect from Achaea's governing staff.

Aldyn, Creator and Founder of Aeledius

It seems a little sleazy, but there also doesn't seem to be a rule against it.

Heya all,

I think it smells a tiny bit, on the other side as an objective and distrusting mudder (yes, I think I am), I'd say it's strange they need to promote their mud like that, and apparently that's their way of xp-ing, *shrug* don't see much challenge in that, nor do I see a rp reason for it (I voted on a website in the outerworld and I gained 10k xp in this fictional world?!?).

But that's just me...

Dre

You know, I play RoD as well and because I know you on RoD as well, I'll just give you a Funny Look(tm) instead of wondering wether you really play RoD if you got such an image of the current immortals/staff...

Big deal. RoD has bots constantly spamming a vote link. No one cares.

Frankly, Achaea is the most newb-friendly MUD I've ever played, and the system is quite a bit of fun (not playing it right now, but I'm not playing anything else...)

GenmaC, you cannot "spam" the votes. Even if you set it up to remove the cookies each time, Synozeer would quickly see that all the votes were coming from the same IP address and remove them (and if a mud kept repeating the process, I suspect they'd have their entry removed).

I'd like to know if the experience gain that people are said to get for voting to Achaea can be confirmed. If this is true it certainly is slimly. Since there is no message board or news on the site relating to this topic it's a bit hard to find out for sure. Is there an offical word on this subject that i could find anywhere?

Also i've heard that the quotes on the site are bogus. "The only MUD that still matters" -RPGplanet.com for an example. I, personally was having problems finding ANY meantion of Achaea at RPGplanet.com. That being the case, I find it hard to believe that it was thought to be the only MUD that "still matters."

What i've heard is that the quote did in fact come from RPGplanet.com, but as a "player review". No one who works for RPGplanet.com said that. To me, that seems pretty misleading.

If anyone knows the offical stance on this topic, please share.

I realize the thread has gone off tangent, but the idea that rewarding players for voting is evil has me curious. Haing just read through the terms of service I didnt notice anything about rules to encourage voting.  Running scripts that spam the count is brought up, as it should be, but why does anyone care how i entice people to vote for the my site.  Its seems as though you are complaining about people using a system the way it is setup.

Pretty much everyone with any kind of common sense realizes that the list isnt based on the "best" mud but instead on the most populated.  It seems to reflect that pretty well.  Who cares if they reward exp, titles, or whatever.  If I reward players who frequent XXX sites will everyone get upset because im giving in game rewards for ooc activities?  I run a pay-to-paly game and I offer a free month for referrals is that an unethical way to promote my game?

Provided that the new tops of the list are not encouraging the players to cheat the current system through scripts or whatnot ( or doing it themselves) I don't really see the reason everyone is so upset by it.  We are getting exactly what the system promotes.

Anyone who has an account there can confirm it.  Every few minutes, if you haven't voted for them that day, it sends you this messing within the MUD:

[Tip]: Did you know that you could be getting a 10% bonus to your experience gain? Read HELP BLESSING for more info.

Contents of HELP BLESSING:

The blessing will give you a 10% bonus to all xp you gain, and reduce any xp you lose from death by 10%. They all wear off at midnight GMT with the Orphean Serenade, but you can easily get one again.

All you have to do is:
1. Go to
2. Click on the 'Vote for Achaea as #1 MUD' button.
3. Click on the 'Click Here To Enter' box.

That's it! Any character online from the same internet address (more formally called an IP address) will receive the blessing within a minute or so. The blessing will last until midnight GMT, at which point you simply vote again to
get the blessing again. We appreciate you doing this for us, and the blessing is our thank you. Thanks!

INFO: We know that some people are unable to get the blessing even though they have voted. This is a result of your ISP (often AOL) forcing you to use a web proxy. Most of the problems can be fixed if you're an AOL users by simply using a browser different from the AOL one. For instance, a standard Internet Explorer installation will work fine.

There are bots that sit there and say "Vote for RoD on topmudsites!" and then list the link to do so. I only played for a couple of days (99% of which I spent in hell, for *gasp* PK, the most deadly of sins).

In other words, big deal.

And frankly, the voting system is skewed toward high player numbers.

In my opinion, the review system is far more broken and should be fixed - there are system uptime/downtime notices posted as reviews, for crap's sake!

Well i kind of agree with you on the "p2p" muds are evil thing. The only reason I stayed in Achaea long enough to become attached to it is that you don't HAVE to pay.

You're entitled to your opinion on the matter...like I said, I won't argue it's not sleazy. I'm just making sure any judgements people make are based on facts...

And I'm not accusing anyone in particular, but there seemed to be a thread of achaea-bashing and calling the admins liars and complete jerks based on...well, I don't know what.

Rhaky

Ok, we all agree it's about advertizing, but is it false advertizing?

I agree that the list, in its state now is going to depend on the number of people who play it, not how many times one person or a few people can push a button. If that's so, and it is about the number of people who play i'd like to know how many REAL people represent the number of votes they have. One hundred votes made by the same person doesn't have the credablity as say 5 votes made by 5 different people. Just my opinion. And i hope that everyone who sees this list is aware of how it is scored and the "tactics" used to get votes.

As for the quotes, the person who wrote the review at RPGplanet.com is not employeed by the company. Therefore RPGplanet.com did not say that quote ("The only MUD that still matters."). Do i blame them for advertizing? No. But they are cleary representing their product dishonestly.

As for the comment about Simutronics. Simutronics has actually asked people NOT to vote as often as they could. Not nagging people who are trying to RP in game with OCC requests to vote for their MUD. So please don't compare with the two.

A thought comes to mind when i saw exactly how the "blessing" worked. It seems to me that players who don't vote will be at a significant disadvantage to those who do. To me this do not appear to be encouragement, it pretty much forces you to vote if you want to stay ahead in the game.

Again slimy. People should choose to vote because they love the game, not because they are forced to.

I'd have to agree with everything rhakshai said.

At first I thought it was an artocity, until I realised why I thought it was an atrocity. People are recieving IC rewards for OOC actions. Now if the Imms ever thought of implementing this at Armageddon, I'd kill them. Why? because Armageddon is an RPI, so IC rewards for an OOC action is ridiculous.

Now what about Muds, that are H&S or RP Encouraged? From a PLAYERS point of view I don't see a problem with it for H&S and not TOO big a problem with RP encouraged muds. But that's the view I'd have as a PLAYER from said Mud.

The voting system ISN'T for the best, it's for the most heavily populated mud. And I don't see anything wrong with this, as when I look for a new mud, just as a break from Armageddon, I -want- a heavily populated Mud, and love the system that is in place here.

I think the only people who should really care about Achea's voting system, are the players.

If THEY mind having a message every 10mins saying "Don't forget to vote" then THEY should go to Achea's staff and say as much.

If THEY have a problem with people recieving IC benefits for voting, then THEY should go to Achea's staff and say as much.

That's what I think the issue should be, are the players getting annoyed? If they aren't then who cares, but if they are and it doesn't change, then I think the Muds who use this system will suffer, because the players will either leave or stop voting.

Although I can understand everyone's frustration. Because they try so hard to create a good mud, and then have another mud beat them by a method that would be considered "not right" if they implemented in their Mud.

The only problem I could possibly have as a non-Achea person, is if they were bribing the TMS staff.

Thanks for the consessions and admitting that not everything is all and well. But i too must admit i'm biased. I'm a long time Dragonrealms player that was recently introduced to this site (along with the entire playerbase).

So i can verify that there was *one* in game announcement that the button had put up. I wasn't playing at the time but there has been alot of discussion about it on our message boards. That's a big difference from a daily "reminder". And i can also tell you for a fact that the Simutronics staff has asked the players not to vote simply because they can.

I'm sorry but this statement is so wrong. The following is a quote from the Dragonrealms message board:

This numbers are pretty typical (if you're wondering if this might be particulary busy night).

Is this list reflecting population of the MUD? No. It is reflecting quality of the MUD? Perhaps on a more general level i say yes it is. It would more so if the administaters let the players make the desicion to vote or not.

I think we all have to accept this list for what it is and not base our MUD's worth on it.

See...that's the tacky part, IMO.

If *WE* offered any sort of in-game "prize" or incentive (ar annoying reminder) to vote, I shudder to think of what the results would be.  I mean seriously...if we could just get everyone in the three versions of DR that are running right now to vote, (aside from crashing TMS again) the result would be rediculous and Achaea would never be able to compete.

Imagine the impact that any sort of in-game carrot would have. :\

As of this posting I'm willing to wager that the top 7 muds on the list are all in the top 15 or or so muds in existance as far as pbase is concerned. Seems to be pretty accurate in terms of size to me.  If you want to split hairs over the order then we can do that, but as a whole it reflects exactly what the system is set-up to do.

Players do make the desicion to vote or not.  If it really bothers the players of Achaea to vote that much then they can leave, if the players of DR are that upset that another mud is above them in the list they can vote and change it.  Why?  Because they have the population to do it, and because they have that choice.
This is exactly what I am getting at.  It's not cheating, NOWHERE in the terms of service is encouraging players to vote (no matter the means) against any rule.  I think charging to play in special events to be evil and misleading to players, so does that mean its wrong and cheating to do it?  Not at all.  I think paying for banners on mud sites is unfair for free muds who can't afford that type of advertising, should muds not be allowed to do it?  Of course not.   You give someone the oppurtunity for free advertising you have to expect some will take advantage of it more so than others.
The real issue is what the thread started out with, the misleading ads.  And from the looks of things the "voted #1 mud on earth" ad may just end up being true, no matter how much everyone despises it.

The Achaea game is aquiring a very bad reputation over these issues. Tavish's posts are quickly losing creditablity as each statement he says is contradicted and proven otherwise.

Just because what Achaea is doing is not against terms of service does not mean that it isn't "cheating". You are inflating your vote by a lot and contaminating this list and making it worthless. This scheme has cheapened the ranks and made it meaningless, ruining it for everyone. Never the less, you seem to be unwavering on your stance so i hope it serves your purposes (one way or another). And i hope it was worth dragging your game's name in the mud. I, for one, will never play Achaea after seeing the child-like behavior displayed the game's adiministration.

If this list means so much to you that you would destroy it's interigity and your own, so be it. What's that saying? Let the baby have his bottle?

Actually I am in no way affiliated with Achaea, I am work on my mud as a hobby.  What concerns me is the fact that people are trying to control how others run thier mud.  When (if) I do go public I would hate to think that if I were to put my mud on the list I would be subjected to scrunity of the things I can say or do within my system.  Things that are in no way contraditing the terms of service I signed up for.

Actually I see it just the oppostie.  DR seems to be complaining an awful lot about the fact that they are number 2 on the list when they turn around and post they have nearly 1000 players on during peak times.  They recieve the same free advertising for using the list that all the other muds do.  If it bothers them this much perhaps the players should vote more often.  Surely you can find enough people willing to glorify the game that would boost you to the top.  Perhaps then the constant complaints about other games will stop.

Show me any statement of mine proven wrong or contradicted by anything other than the same complaint of cheating some hidden "spirit of the rules".  

Consider what Achaea is doing to be beneath you all you want, but it is not cheating.

I don't really have a problem with Achea because it's practices are necessarily against the rules, but rather because they are unethical on the whole. Now, what is unethical? Debate that ad nausem if you wish. But, I do consider what they are doing as bribery, which, in at least my, and I'd imagine any non-Machiavellian mind, is not something one should be doing. Here's the dictionary definition of bribe(the noun, not the verb):

Now, I'd consider experience as a 'something', and it is definitely offered to influence someone that is in a position of trust's (anyone who votes here is trusted to vote for the product that they consider a Top Mud) conduct (in this case voting) to doing something they may otherwise not do were it not offered.

Perhaps it is not explicitly against the rules, but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps it's not explicitly wrong, but perhaps it should be.

If someone wishes to condone, or even defend bribery, that's their thing, but come on, at least just call it what it is.

~Meta~

Please tell me how this is complaining. I gave the numbers to prove a point which is quite clear in my post.

It is simply redundant for me to repeat myself. Please read the previous posts and answer your own questions.

I have no problem at all calling it bribery.  But if it is not against the rules of the system then why is everyone complaining about it?  MUD A bribes players with experience to gain votes, MUD B puts up daily reminders for players to votes, MUD C does nothing except put the link up.  They all are doing what they believe is right within the system.  Does that give MUD C the right to call A and B cheaters because they use methods that they do not?  How is posting notes that encourage players to vote any different than offering exp for votes.  The experience bonus is completely contained within that mud's game.  If I put the ultimatium out to my players that if you do not vote for my mud you will be banned, is it the communities job to stop me from doing that, or is it my players desicion to put up with it or leave?
The point still stands that unless Synozeer changes the terms of service for the voting list, you can consider those types of tatics to be unethical, slimy, evil or whatever, but it is NOT cheating.

Alright, this has gone on long enough.

My original post was to air to topics:

1) To inform people of what had changed in the community so everyone is not standing around wondering what on earth happened to make Achaea #1 on the list.

2) To figure out if there was a ruling on the subject and whether there should be.

3) And finally, but least important, was to express my personal and individual take on the subject.

I was happy to get some response and not have the issue ignored, but I would have been equally happy if everyone agreed that it was unethical, or that it was fine, or if everyone disagreed.

But now people are turning it into personal redicule and jabs which is very unbecoming of us, we who are supposed to be an example of the mudding community.  I would like to think we can debate these topics in a civilized manner rather than spamming the members with arguements of "Read my post before you post" and "You read mine first!"  It is getting us nowhere.

Furthur more, most are arguing the same thing:  Is it cheating? Well, that depends on your definition.  Is it breaking the rules of this site: No, is it breaking rules or morality: perhaps, that is an individual opinion.  To say it is cheating does not give us a reference to judge from.  To say its cheating according to TopMudSites.com is basically to say does Synozeer consider it cheating, Travish says no, which means Travish doesn't consider it cheating, nothing more, nothing less.  Travish, you have no right to say that Scorpcrys opinion is wrong, neither does he have the right to say that yours is.

Now, we should stop attacking each other, and attack the issue at hand as productive members of the mudding community, not like whining children.  If this continues we'll have a 50 page flame of "You started it!" and "Did not, you did!"

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive to some parties, it was not intended to be.

James Meyer
aka Aldyn, Creator and Founder of Aeledius

Incase you haven't noticed, Simububba is a producer of Dragonrealms and certainly the has the last word on how the DR community feels about this issue.

Well said, Aeledius.

I guess my biggest problem with the invasion of the pay4play muds is that TMS, I thought, was supposed to be resource for people interested in the mudding community. I don't feel that the corporate muds are a part of this community. None of them ever cared about TMS until they found out they could exploit it for their own usage. It seems quite clear that, to them, this is merely another extension of their advertisements (for free, I might add). And some of them are not above essentially blackmailing their players to vote.

I am of the strong opinion that the best thing TMS can do is ban muds who engage in such embarassingly slimy behavior. At the very least, should the pay4play muds wish to exploit (and make money off of) TMS, there should be a litte $$ sign on the ranking list, so people can know right away what they are dealing with.

The outcome of this debacle, I feel, will determine whether TMS will remain a credible resource for the mudding community, or whether it shall become a whore for the corporate muds.

In a lot of ways, I find myself agreeing with Tavish - Achaea isn't actually cheating, therefore why should it be a problem? However I also see the other point of view - that it is unfair on the other muds who aren't willing to bribe their players, and it puts pressure on them to apply the same sort of measures.

The trouble is it's not an easy situation to deal with. I've spoken with Synozeer about it, and as he pointed out, without extensive auditing it's not something he can easily prevent. Equally, it's unlikely to actually attract new players - the only people likely to vote are those who are already playing, who went the extra benefits - thus if anything it's only going to create a more "accurate" representation of that particular mud's popularity.

Therefore I think it should either be a clear cut "yes, you can do it", or "no, you cannot". If Achaea can get away with it, then I think everyone else should be able to as well - at least until someone can come up with a suitable (and most importantly fair) solution to prevent it.

So far I can only think of two ways to get around this. The first is the suggestion I've made in the past, which is that only people with TMS accounts can vote - however I think most people would end up just creating an account, so that might not help very much. The other solution is to remove the whole in/out voting thing and only count votes which go out from TMS - because then there is no way for mud owners to check whether or not their players have voted for them. The problem with that, of course, is that TMS would lose a lot of hits (which means that Synozeer would lose out - and bare in mind, he's providing this service for us for free, so I don't think that's a fair thing to ask of him).

So rather than complain that it's unfair, let's try and come up with some feasible solutions to the problem.

I propose a simple solution, KaVir.

Remove MUDs that do this from the list, then ban them from being re-added for a set amount of time.

Let people on TMS report the player bribery - a detailed report, mind you, including how to get the bribe. Have a small auditing team that investigates the precise report. If it is something as blatant as Achaea's manner of votes, it is extremely easy to prove. If, however, the person falsely reports it, ignore any further reports from that person. Fairly simple, and extremely effective.

-D

If you wish to be so dismissive of my post by claiming it to be dramatic, that is your prerogative. However, it does not intelligently respond to my post.

There is a difference between a population and a community. No one (at least not me) is saying that no one plays pay4play muds. What I am saying is that these corporate muds have never been interested in TMS until they want to exploit it for their own gains. Therefore, they are not a part of the community. As far as "losing valuable insight" is concerned, I've rarely seen p4p muds give us much at all.

I suggested that p4p muds should have a $$ sign next to their ranking. Another alternative would have to have 2 separate ranking systems, one for free muds, and one for p4p. I would think, however, that inserting a $$ sign would be enough.

If you wish to defend the blackmail that occurs on some of these games, that's your decision. But that does not change the (growing) perception that TMS rewards those who engage in slimy behavior.

To say "that's just the system" as a defense to these practices displays the intent finding the loophole and exploiting the system rather than becoming part of the community.

Ignoring all the diatribe and cutting the the chase regarding the issue at hand:

I agree with Mason's most recent idea, which is to have two different ranking lists. One for P2P and one for free.

However, where would the "donations accepted" games go? Payment isn't required, but they are still getting payment to maintain their servers, pay their coders, rent the hosting space, or whatever.

And even within those donations accepted games - there are some that stand a chance to make a profit (legally or otherwise) and those who only accept enough to maintain their expenses and reject any donations beyond that in any given month.

Then there are the games, like Achaea, that are free - unless you want more equipment or extra skills or whatever, and only then does it cost extra. Are those technically P2P, or are they technically free?

I think the more you try to limit or restrict, the more difficult and complex things become. But if someone can make heads and tails out of all this and come up with a reasonably simple guideline, it could work.

The only problem with the idea is that you would have two lists with people at the top running promotional gimmicks instead of one.